Venezuelan opposition march

[chequita guevara]

Most folks consider Chavez left-wing. Given that he lead an attempted coup once in the 90s (IIRC), he's not a particularly welcome member of our camp. He's been a fairly good democrat since being elected, and there's no indication that he's trying to become a dictator, despite what the opposition says.

AS, his selling oil to Cuba at cut rates isn't what has gotten him in hot water at home (though it certainly added fuel to the fire). It has definately cooled relations between Caracas and Washington, however.

[JCG]

Chavez isn't going to be in power forever, whatever happens. Thus a long term, lasting Venezuelan civil war is rather out of the question, for now.

And well, it's not just the obviously filthy rich that would have to give up a good share of their money, but also the middle classes, who don't have that much more to begin with.

You can't get out of this, unless you completely expropiate the rich outright, but Chavez is nowhere near close to that, as far as I can tell.

If the economy is bad, and the government is trying to tax both the middle and upper classes even further, obviously you can't expect them to sit down quietly for an indefinite amount of time with no reasonable improvements.

Nor have the poor received a huge and permanent benefit from Chavez's policies, thus it's likely that even that support isn't absolute.

Still, nobody in Venezuela is going to get anywhere with the current unflexible stances and unreasonable demands coming from the opposition. If Chavez doesn't slip, he'll eventually go through (at least until his term ends).

Whether that will be a good or bad thing, time will tell....

[Kontiki]

The reason I fear a civil war is simply because the divide seems to have gotten too deep. The poor have supported Chavez, but even their support has waned somewhat since he hasn't been able to deliver fast enough on his redistribution policies (whether that's even possible is pretty debatable). Obviously the wealthy and middle classes are going to and have opposed the very notion, and are now rather vehemently opposing and actions in that regard. I don't think you can blame Chavez for for the conflict, or at least you certainly can't place all the blame on him. It's clear the masses want change and the elite don't. Calling an early election or replacing Chavez outright aren't necessarily going to do anything to address this situation.

[Dr. Nick]

Chávez left-wing? That says alot about the Washington Post's "journalism." Anybody can report a news story, clearly, but not everybody understands what the heck they write about.

And Che, you have a point. They can just keep pushing. Castro was not a communist at the beginning, but with enough proding and pushing, they forced him into a corner

The Washington Post had an article about how Lula was like the third anti Christ and was going to turn Brazil into a rogue nations that sponsors terrorism, just so that you see the quality.

[chequita guevara]

Are you sure that was the Post and not the Times. The Times is a whacky-right-wing nut-job paper. The Post tends to be a bit more responsible in its journalism.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence


The Washington Post had an article about how Lula was like the third anti Christ and was going to turn Brazil into a rogue nations that sponsors terrorism, just so that you see the quality.

Yeah Lula also said he wants to acquire nuclear weapons for the military. I wonder what you Argentines have to say about that? First Lula must know how to recover about $300 billion that was lost from the country's GDP in the past three years. Which I doubt he even knows how. He doesn't have a good economic team and his leftist tendencies will hardly help the economic situation, which will only worsen.

Anyways back to Venezuela.

[Sava]

I figured a thread about South American politics would quickly get Fezzed... the BAM strikes again!!!

ANyways, I can't comment on this Chavez situation. I haven't been paying attention to what little media coverage it's been getting in the US. 24 hours a day news and all I hear is "Iraq, Iraq, blah blah..." from the Bush-4ss-licking club that is Foxnews... only NPR has reported on the Venezuelan situation. I find that odd because this strike situation is going to affect America a great deal because the oil won't get exported.

Maybe the American media is scared that the American people will agree with the leftist policies.

And Fez, Pinochet was a war criminal just like the man who put him there, Kissinger.

[Sava]

oh god, get that stupid reaganomics graphic out of here... its completely false...

[El León]

OK well then, Chávez is "left-wing." So I guess we could call the Mexican PRI dictatorhsip left-wing as well.

It's a sad day for the political spectrum when it has been pushed so far right that Chávez looks left wing.

BTW, maybe there is some reason that doesn't make this -ically simple, but the dictatorship thesis seems pretty weak - Why would you want to become at dictator when your popularity is at a low, and why didn't you do it when it was high?
And the way the press was treated by Pinochet, Perón, Fidel, Castelo Branco, Videla, Stroessner, Rios-Montt, and so on and so forth,
vs. the leniency of Chávez have absolutely no comparison.

[Sava]

oh yeah... and the CATO institute = rightist BS think-tank that manufactures false results and spins it to say what it wants to say...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sava
oh god, get that stupid reaganomics graphic out of here... its completely false...

Prove it, you communist.

I figured a thread about South American politics would quickly get Fezzed... the BAM strikes again!!!

Politics which you know nothing about. Yes BAM strikes again, you.

And Fez, Pinochet was a war criminal just like the man who put him there, Kissinger.

Pinochet is a hero.

Maybe the American media is scared that the American people will agree with the leftist policies.

Very funny. Not every American (or at least I hope) is as bone headed as you. Chavez's policies are stupid beyond belief. He dragged an unwilling military into politics, and most certainly dugged himself into the hole. Now the military is pissed off at him and his people are even moreso.

The people are having a rebellion against him. The people want somebody who isn't corrupt like the old order and doesn't bring in new corruption like the so called "new" order (Chavez's rule). They need something new. Like an Alvaro Uribe for example. Don't take no for an answer, Uribe is a tough right-wing leader who was elected in neighboring Colombia. Now Venezuela needs somebody like him. And so do many other Latin American countries.

Well of course there will be people like Sava, who love the FARC and all of those leftist organizations, but they should be ignored. They serve humanity no purpose and their hot aired rhetoric (as you can notice in Sava's posts) is purely based on a poorly built foundation. Rhetoric on a poorly built foundation adds up to Latin American Politics. NEXT! I have seen enough of the People's Party this, Popular Left Front this, United Left Party... whatever... who cares? They can blow all the hot air they want but do the people in the villages really give a crap? No they don't. They just want to live.

And it is people like Chavez that are preventing that. The people in the huts and villages throughout Venezuela cannot survive with such short-sighted economic views that Chavez has. Wake up, he will bankrupt the country if he continues on the way he is going. The GDP will continue to decline (it fell by -6% Q3 according to The Economist Magazine) and nothing will be done. Chavez will continue to blame an American or European Imperialist "Consipiracy" while his country falls apart and the Venezuelan people get killed by Chavez's leftist militias. I hope the Venezuelan Armed Forces does the right thing, arrest Chavez and call for immediate elections.

Damn, I wish Carmona never left when he was sworn in as president. This whole situation wouldn't be like this if he was still in power.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Sava
oh yeah... and the CATO institute = rightist BS think-tank that manufactures false results and spins it to say what it wants to say...

Hey Sava, good one... you are not acting any better than I am when I say:

"CNN, a leftist communist agency runned by Pravda, and influenced by Saddam Hussein"

I don't say those kind of things anymore. Just doesn't make any sense.

BTW, CATO is a centerist organization.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sava
oh god, get that stupid reaganomics graphic out of here... its completely false...

Nice "Fez," Sava.

[Shi Huangdi]

"BTW, CATO is a centerist organization."

Actually, the Cato Institute is a libertarian organization. And it is spelled centrist, not centerist.

[Sava]

It's no wonder you feel that way Fez, considering where you are from, Spain (a good old fascist country), and Argentina (where all the Nazis that escaped went).

Anyways, I don't need to disprove Reaganomics. The 30 million people below the poverty line is proof enough. Even that graph shows that the rich got much richer than everyone else. Most non-fascists will agree, widening the gap between rich and poor... bad.

Anyways, I'm just going to sit back and watch you BAM some more.