Rugby - Last Feet!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
...it is a shame it sometimes doesn't occur at internationals (witness England-Boks recently)

I agree with you.

I was there that day and although that last penalty well into injury time was no such thing I certainly cannot argue that the French deserved the win on the day.

Wasn't it a confirmation by Stéphane Ougier just after the try he had himself scored a few seconds before?

[Havak]

Tamerlin my memory is shaky six years on but I think that try and conversion were near the end but that the actual win came from a penalty at the very death. Certainly you were trailing throughout the game and turned it around very late on.

I may well be wrong - it could be a Bath game from the previous year I am remembering.

This year will be most interesting - Stade playing very well indeed, Tigers falling from their former heights, Llanelli pretending to be a decent side yet again and the Irish provinces in the mix.

Because Tigers know they can sell any number of tickets for the Munster game the talk is we will play it at Leicester City's (soccer) ground that has a 34,000 capacity against out 17,000.

[finbar]

Originally posted by vulture
Call me a cynic, but anyone who thinks that knowing that is going to make a huge difference to the game is probably delusional. It doesn't offer Gloucester any excuses.

Methinks you're absolutely right. All the pre-planning in the universe isn't going to help if you play like busted a*seholes.

One Glaws fan said that when he got a taxi back to the airport the following day, the taxi drivers were giving out copies of the game plan to all Gloucester supporters...Nice touch

Great touch!

[finbar]

Havak - just slightly off-topic for a moment. We had a friend over for dinner tonight and we got to talking about T. Blair and his nailing of his colours to G. Witless Bush's mast over the matter of invading Iraq. What is behind it? I told them I'd ask you as my resident intelligent observer and assessor of things English.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Havak - just slightly off-topic for a moment. We had a friend over for dinner tonight and we got to talking about T. Blair and his nailing of his colours to G. Witless Bush's mast over the matter of invading Iraq. What is behind it? I told them I'd ask you as my resident intelligent observer and assessor of things English.

Havak can certainly answer far better than me, I can only say that the US and english foreign and military policies are like a Primary Hard Disk Drive and a Secondary Hard Disk Drive, the second one must be set to Slave Position if you want it to run appropriately. Needless to say the boot sequence is initiated with the Primary Hard Disk Drive.

More seriously, the european powers are not superpowers anymore, only Europe as an entity has the potential to become a Superpower. The individual members of the European Community must have a united policy or side with the Franco-German axis to have any weight. For the foreign policy of England to have any weight it must side with another powerfull ally which is naturally the USA as there is no possibility to build an alliance as strong as the Franco-German one inside the EC. The problem is that when you side with a much more powerfull ally than you the later one has the means to dictate the general policy.
Moreover, the health of the English economy is much more dependent on the american one than the economy of the other European countries, an Americano-English alliance is thus obvious.

[Havak]

Purely my own opinion here.

I think Tony likes to feel important.

I mean the UK is important to the EC - they would be basically done for without our financial input at the moment - but our European nieghbours treat us like a convenient wallet to pull out whenever they have another hairbrained scheme (such as the ridiculous expansion of the EC bringing in more 'liability' economies). But I digress - he cannot get the recognition a UK Prime Minister should have from that direction so he is looking elsewhere.

Can you imagine how important he feels being Witless's man in Europe? The US of A's de facto special envoy to Europe (with an honourable mention worldwide).

Yes I think friend Tony likes to feel important.

For myself at the next General Election I have a hard search to find a Socialist party to vote for - "New" Labour are a disgrace to that worthy name of Labour Party to be honest.

Lets have properly structured progressive taxation.

Thats all external to the issue of course. I agree Sadam needs getting rid of in a way. Biut I am highly suspicious of a son who seems to be correcting his fathers career ending mistake (assuring Saudi and Jordan that Iraq would not be invaded in 91 essentially). If the US and UK are to wade in there it needs to be for solid reasons - not family obligations.

Apologies to Tamerlin if he disagrees with my dislike of the French/German led rush to bring more freeloaders into the EC by the way. I'm struggling to see what economies like Poland give us to be honest? I can see what they will take - my cash!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Apologies to Tamerlin if he disagrees with my dislike of the French/German led rush to bring more freeloaders into the EC by the way. I'm struggling to see what economies like Poland give us to be honest? I can see what they will take - my cash!

First, you don't have to make any apology because you disagree with me, the one and only advantage we have over some backwater countries is that we can freely express any opinion (and moreover we don't care about the politically correct in this f****** thread).

Your point is very interesting indeed and I would have myself preferred a more planned and more progressive integration of the eastern european countries into the EC rather than this force-marched schedule. What is amazing is that the Germans have already made such a terrible mistake with the former DDR and that the cost is far higher than anticipated.

I would prefer the European Community to focus on the creation of a real European Federation rather than trying to increase as fast as possible and at all costs its borders.

[Havak]

Absolutely

It's staggering, given the relative size of the two countries, that the UK is now apparently considered 'richer' than Germany (stated on BBC Radio 5 yesterday morning - not sure what criteria they were using in that analysis).

Your point about the high level of co-operation between US and UK forces was spot on by the way. There have only been two high profile disagreements since WWII - Suez (boo hiss USA!) and Vietnam.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
Suez (boo hiss USA!)

Booooo!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
It's staggering, given the relative size of the two countries, that the UK is now apparently considered 'richer' than Germany (stated on BBC Radio 5 yesterday morning - not sure what criteria they were using in that analysis).

Don't forget the east german länders are much poorer than their western counterparts and that they are greatly reducing the economical ratios of the GFR as they are experiencing a dramatic long term economical crisis.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Can you imagine how important he feels being Witless's man in Europe? The US of A's de facto special envoy to Europe (with an honourable mention worldwide).

Yes I think friend Tony likes to feel important.

Mmmm. I hoped it might be something more than that. I don't know what, but something other than megalomania. We have the same problem here, of course, with Little Johnny Howard, who boasts of his phone chats with George Witless. There's a rapidly-building anti-invasion - without UN approval - sentiment here. If it happens, it will cost Little Johnny dearly. Not to mention the Iraqi civilians who have been criminally forgotten in this push to secure US oil supplies.

For myself at the next General Election I have a hard search to find a Socialist party to vote for - "New" Labour are a disgrace to that worthy name of Labour Party to be honest.

Same here. Simon Crean - Labour leader - has finally latched onto the anti-invasion (without UN approval) sentiment and is starting to push it. But it's purely expediency. Our Labour Party lost its way about 10 years ago.

I agree Sadam needs getting rid of in a way. Biut I am highly suspicious of a son who seems to be correcting his fathers career ending mistake (assuring Saudi and Jordan that Iraq would not be invaded in 91 essentially). If the US and UK are to wade in there it needs to be for solid reasons - not family obligations.

'91 was about rescuing Kuwait to secure Kuwait's oil. This time it's about securing Iraq's oil because of the uncertainty over the future relationship with Saudi Arabia. Only the dates change.

Apologies to Tamerlin if he disagrees with my dislike of the French/German led rush to bring more freeloaders into the EC by the way. I'm struggling to see what economies like Poland give us to be honest? I can see what they will take - my cash!

I realise I'm a long way away from what's happening in Europe, and I'm opposed to anything that homogenises the place, particularly culturally; but, OTOH, anything that creates a power capable of and willing to oppose the US in its campaign to govern the world is fine by me. Yesterday's French and German combined opposition to the invasion of Iraq was most welcome. Cold War Dinosaur D. Rumsfeld's reponse was typically churlish - to the effect that France and Germany are living in the past, they're no longer powers in Europe, that the power has shifted to the East. Apart from its churlishness, I have no idea what he meant by "the East".

[Tamerlin]

In my own opinion, getting rid of Sadam should have been done in 1991. I have always thought it would be a problem in the future and this would have avoided the sufferings of innocent manipulated civilians.

Originally posted by finbar
I realise I'm a long way away from what's happening in Europe, and I'm opposed to anything that homogenises the place, particularly culturally...

This is why I am in favour of a Federation and not of a Confederation.

...but, OTOH, anything that creates a power capable of and willing to oppose the US in its campaign to govern the world is fine by me. Yesterday's French and German combined opposition to the invasion of Iraq was most welcome. Cold War Dinosaur D. Rumsfeld's reponse was typically churlish - to the effect that France and Germany are living in the past, they're no longer powers in Europe, that the power has shifted to the East. Apart from its churlishness, I have no idea what he meant by "the East".

This is a much needed balance of power. When Mr. Rumsfeld says the power has shifted to the East, he is certainly considering Russia as the new European Superpower which is very far from the truth. I think he is actually threatening the European nations to look for another ally instead of wasting its time with countries which are refusing to say amen everytime the witless shrub sneezes. Although Russia should not be underestimated this country has severe internal problems (social, economical, military and political) that will need several decades until they are solved.

The reason why the Franco-German axis is accelerating the integration of the former communist countries can certainly be found here. Once this countries will be members of the EC, they will escape from the influence area of Russia and will thus contribute to a new balance of power. Of course this will have a cost but we citizens will pay for it, as usual.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
In my own opinion, getting rid of Sadam should have been done in 1991. I have always thought it would be a problem in the future and this would have avoided the sufferings of innocent manipulated civilians.

It won't be any easier this time than it would have been last time. Now - as would've been needed back then - it will mean US troops in the streets of Baghdad, massive US casualties ... which will, effectively, destroy the Bush administration in the eyes of the US voters.

When Mr. Rumsfeld says the power has shifted to the East, he is certainly considering Russia

That's what I sort of assumed. It's based, of course, on Putin's now comfy relationship with Witless. But as you say, Russia has so many internal problems - not the least of which is in the South - that it's severely hamstrung in its capabilities. Russia also, of course, is playing hardball over the Iraq invasion matter because it has huge financial connections with Iraq. Which is what it all boils down to, unfortunately - bloody money!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
...bloody money!

It will ruin us all.

Me less than the others though.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


It will ruin us all.

Me less than the others though.

Presumably because you never have any?

BTW, I'm putting the pressure on Mrs finbar for a trip to France later this year. I'll have to check the dates for the end of the WRC.