wave your flag Germany

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Heresson
Of course You aren't responsible personally for past German faults (though in fact, Your own faults are much bigger )....

hehe

...still, if You consider yourself a German, you are responsible as a part of nation for what this nation has once done.
Well, that's not quite what I think, but I haven't got time for bigger discussions.

Well, perhaps I misunderstood, but how can I be responsible for things happened in the past? What I meant was - Germans today in general are responsible for their country today. Of course we shouldn´t forget the past, and the lessons we learned, esp. about Germany´s role between 33-45, but I think nobody who was not directly involved in this should feel personal guilt. Those who committed crimes should feel so (in an ideal case), but not everyone who is a German.

[Arrian]

First off, to expect a German born after WWII to feel responsible in any way for what happened during WWII is ludicrous. That is not to say that one shouldn't expect them to be concious of their nation's history. Acknowledging the past and shaping foreign policy based upon it is one thing (i.e. not sending German troops out of Germany), feeling personally responsible is entirely another.

Everyone has a different concept of what it means to be patriotic. To me, it means loving one's country, but not to the point of blind acceptance of bad policy. I consider it a patriotic duty to be a cynical SOB about the US government. Many, many, many other people, it seems, see patriotism as toeing the official line, waving your flag and to hell with everybody else (nationalism, I guess, though I still don't see much difference between patriotism and nationalism).

And of course "patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels." It isn't that being patriotic is necessarily a bad thing - it can be quite good - it's that it is so often used as cover by bigots, religious zealots and the like.

-Arrian

[johncmcleod]

About the nationalism after 9/11. That wasn't really nationalism, we were just being racist by thinking badly of Arabs. But it wasn't that bad. I have heard stories of Arabs being prejudiced, but I remember everyone telling each other to be sure not t blame it on all Arabs. I don't mean to sound like it wasn't wrong to do this, it was bad, but if it takes thousands of innocent people to do just like that to make about a month of some racism, I don't know what it'll take to Americans think everyone else in the world is worse then them.

[David Floyd]

Patriotism is, IMO, just as idiotic as nationalism. I don't support either.

[Heresson]

hehe

I think You know that...

[quote]
Well, perhaps I misunderstood, but how can I be responsible for things happened in the past?
[quote]

If people followed your logic - and there is some right in it- no-one could be accused of anything, as He did some crime yesterday, and today He isn't doing anything bad,
today He is a completely other person.

What I meant was - Germans today in general are responsible for their country today. Of course we shouldn´t forget the past, and the lessons we learned, esp. about Germany´s role between 33-45, but I think nobody who was not directly involved in this should feel personal guilt. Those who committed crimes should feel so (in an ideal case), but not everyone who is a German.

It is a comfortable view, isn't it. And again, theoretically it is right. But as a citizen of Germany, or a member of its
nation, You are as a worker in a company. You may not have liked the former boss and You may be angry about his debts, still, You are supposed to pay them back.
Of course, the question there is when will Germans finally repay this debt... But I think it is not paid back.
Again I have to come back to the things that annoy me so, that in some south-German cities, museums are proudly exposing the loots from Poland taken by Hitler
and the gouverment or no authorities aren't doing anything to return it to rightfull owners. Germany did much, but pretty slowly, sometimes reluctantly, and not fully.

[MikeH]

Let's just say that if anyone tried to make me pledge allegiance to my flag or country when I was at school or now I'd tell them to perform a biologically impossible act on themselves.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Heresson
It is a comfortable view, isn't it.

It is the only point of view that makes sense to me - because an individual cannot take the responsibilty of crimes done generations before. I can understand that this can cause bitter feelings by persons who were victims of nazi rule, but this does not change the fact that people are responsible for their own doings, not for those they didn´t commit.

And again, theoretically it is right. But as a citizen of Germany, or a member of its
nation, You are as a worker in a company. You may not have liked the former boss and You may be angry about his debts, still, You are supposed to pay them back.
Of course, the question there is when will Germans finally repay this debt... But I think it is not paid back.
Again I have to come back to the things that annoy me so, that in some south-German cities, museums are proudly exposing the loots from Poland taken by Hitler
and the gouverment or no authorities aren't doing anything to return it to rightfull owners. Germany did much, but pretty slowly, sometimes reluctantly, and not fully.

Well, if you speak about reparations or repaying debts, I would agree with you. I remember the discussion here about payments for people from other countries who had to do slave work in Nazi-Germany. I think it was a shame that we needed that long time to comply, especially the big German companies which made big profits in that way were much too slow, and could have paid much more (esp. if you think that most of them aren´t poor).

However, my earlier replies were more about individual guilt and responsibility of Germans today.

[Sonic]

No, nationalism isn't the same as patriotism and as fascism/nazism also.

Patriotism - Thinking your country is a good country to live.
Nationalism - Thinking your country is the best in the world.
Fascism - Thinking your country is the best in the world and other countries are very bad.
Nazism - Thinking your country is the best in the world and other nations are so bad that they doesn't deserve any rights.

[Heresson]

It is the only point of view that makes sense to me - because an individual cannot take the responsibilty of crimes done generations before. I can understand that this can cause bitter feelings by persons who were victims of nazi rule, but this does not change the fact that people are responsible for their own doings, not for those they didn´t commit.

You are not responsible for your parents' dids, but You take their heritage - or their debts - after they die.

Sorry, I can't write more right now.

[VetLegion]

You are not responsible for your parents' dids, but You take their heritage - or their debts - after they die.

Heresson what are you talking about? You take your parents debts if they die? So if your father was say a gambler and he dies, you have to repay his debts?


Poland is weird...

[VetLegion]

btw., my opinion

You are responsable for a regime, if you didnt do anything to overthrow it.

[bogi]

Originally posted by VetLegion
[q]

Poland is weird...

"Strange country, where the waiter speaks five languages, and the minister of culture can only communicate in Polish "

Jean Paul Sartre about Poland






Anyway the Germans will always be blamed for WW2 no matter what generation they are from. So the so called "new" germans must accept to be blamed for what their granparents did.

[johncmcleod]

I liked Sonic's way of putting it...but I don't think thinking your country is the best in the world is that bad. Somebody has to be the best, and if you think it's your country, that's fine. Let's say you're the smartest person at your school. By thinking the truth does that mean you're arrogant? I guess you're suppose to just assume someone else is, because you possibly can't be the smartest, thinking that would be bad.

Let's try a different scenario:

You go around the halls telling everyone about how smart you are. That's being arrogant.

Here's another one.

Some people tell you you aren't the smartest, nor the second or third. You argue with them, saying that you are the smartest, and then start debating about it. But you tell them that doesn't make them lower than you, you're just smarter.

That last one is kind of how the we're the best thread got started. I would put it this way.


Patriotism: Thinking your country is a good nation.

Being very patriotic: Thinking your country is the best in the world. The citizens of other countries are no worse than you. You have no right to invade them or anything like that, you're country is just better.

Nationalism: Your country is the best in the world. The people from other countries are not as good as you are.

Fascism: Your country is the best in the world. You need to invade or oppress other countries, they and their people are not as good as you are.

Nazism: Your people are the chosen ones. They other ones should be put into death camps.

[aliveandwell]

nationalism-putting the whole country needs over a section of a country's needs. Ex: north and south. Ex: haynes and webster debates.

[Stefan Härtel]

Let me ask, as a German, why must I be patriotic? Why must I love my country?
I hate Germany. It's not because of all what Germany has done in the past -I do think that Germany has been one of the most criminal nations throughout histrory, and that it has been rewarded for this rather than punished, and that Germany hasn't bled enough- but that's not the point. I hate Germany because of what it is today.
I put Patriotism (to me it's the same as nationalism, jingoism, chauvinism and whatever else it's called) on the same shelve as, say, religion. They're things I have never been able to identify with. I have no problems with people who believe in their countries, gods, whatever. But I do have a ****ing big problem when they want me to do the same -and I've experienced this often enough to know what I'm talking about. I've never believed in any country, any god or anything else like that. The time may come when I start doing so (I don't think that it's going to come, but you never know), but then I want to take this step on my own.
But as for now, and propably as for always, I've got no special feelings towards these 260,000 km² of central european soil.
Or, to put it differently, I'm not a German, not a European, I'm a human.