wave your flag Germany

[D@VE]

I love my country, but I have to say I lived in Middlesex, England for three years and I would love to go back there. The Brits keep thier country very clean.

[Seneca]

Is that us he's talking about?

[Traianvs]

Hmm, i was in Germany last monday-wednesday, in Wurzburg (which is a prosperous city near Munich, in Bayern, a conservative right area where much of the nazis where hanging around if i recall correctly) and even there the whole thing is still printed in their minds... I talked to a guy about politics and even then they oppose everything related to nationalism... the nazi disaster is always in their minds, and they don't want it to happen again (i encourage this btw)

that doesn't mean that there aren't rightwing ppl in there but still... left is quite popular there (opposed to the success of the right parties, and liberals everywhere else in Europe).

you see the same thing everywhere, in art as well for example: a certain painting style is usually a reaction against another previous style etc etc, same thing here, In a while Germany will go all right again, i'm sure

[Gangerolf]

Boris, you're right. For some reason I thought that the title of the anthem was Deutschland über alles.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Pekka
Hell no!

really?
we do in norway. and I know fro a fact that they do it in sweden too (flags on the christmas tree).

[Sandman]

Patriotism is the exact same thing as nationalism. It just sounds less like 'nazism'.

[Pekka]

Well maybe some do, but it's not a custom in here.. What's up with that! FLAG WAIVERS! You .. will.. all.. die.. without.. respect!

[Gangerolf]

you must really hate your country

[Pekka]

No.. we just don't like to ruin it by over doing it like the rest of you .

[Gangerolf]

it's not overdoing, it's tradition.

I wonder if they do it in germany

[DanS]

"Patriotism is the exact same thing as nationalism."

I've seen nationalism--a couple of weeks right before Gulf War I in the US. About a month of it. Nationalism crushes dissent.

Personally, I haven't seen the reoccurence of this, even in the past year. I have seen a lot of healthy patriotism and flag-waving in the last 10 years in the US, though.

[GePap]

Patriotism and nationalism are NOT the same thing: too bad that the english language has no nice word for "Patria". The best is Fatherland.

Patriotism is feeling pride about your fatherland, while nationalism is pride in your nation. These are no the same things, as fatherland refers only to the state to which you belong, without needing to be of a specific ehtno-cultural group, which is a nation.

So, a patirotic man would feel pride and commradeship with all their fellow citizens, regardless of race or creed,as long as race or creed was not central to one being able to be a citizen (which requires nationalism).

[Sandman]

Type 'Patriotic Front' into Google for some 'healthy' patriotic websites.

Patriotism is feeling pride about your fatherland, while nationalism is pride in your nation. These are no the same things, as fatherland refers only to the state to which you belong, without needing to be of a specific ehtno-cultural group, which is a nation.

Fatherland is just a sentimental euphemism for nation. Whether that nation is expressed in the form of a state is another matter. Sometimes nations form out of states, other times states form out of nations.

So, a patirotic man would feel pride and commradeship with all their fellow citizens, regardless of race or creed,as long as race or creed was not central to one being able to be a citizen (which requires nationalism).

I think that you are distinguishing between ethnic nationalism and civic nationalism here. Ethnic nationalism is based on ethnicity, civic nationalism is based on certain ideals. However, the two are not usually clear-cut.

[GePap]

Google searches do not a point make.

The notion of Patria is much older than that of nation. There is a minor kernel of it inside, but as you youself said, it ususally comes to mean respect for ones way of life, without the blood meaning of nation. The Romans were intensely patriotic though hardly nationalistic (otherwise they would not have been so geenrous with citizenship).

[Buck Birdseed]

I believe that's a reasonable summary, at least sans the value judgements. Unfortunately, patriotism tends to bring two things with it that are not so pleasant.

Firstly, a lot of people tend to misinterpret their duties as citizens and believe that a true patriot follows the order of the state even if they feel they are morally wrong. In fact, patriotism as a concept often carries these kinds of connotations.

Secondly, patriotism is often used to suppress other cultural groups than the main one in a country, which is elevated into some sort of common heritage that many people may not share. Rather than promoting ethnic diversity for its own sake, people who use this argument fallaciously claim to have invented some sort of universial culture that more often than not happens to be that of the dominant ethnic group.

In both these cases nationalism can be supremely useful, coupled with the activist spirit on which a republic is built. In the first case, people can ignore the command of the state and instead do what they believe is the best thing for their ethnic group. In the second case nationalism can help preserve the unique and important aspects of ones own culture and help promote them on a national level.