Sex changes should be made illegal

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Zylka


Well on top of my "fears" I rather hate watching people f*ck themselves up, as do most caring human beings.

Well, now I have to chime in. Have avoided it thus far, but this...

Zylka, many (almost certainly not most) of these people who get sex changes were f*cked up at birth when their doctors and parents couldn't figure out the sex of the newborn, so they just picked one that THEY wanted and went with it. These people are trying to correct a horible mistake done to them at birth. For others, chemical imbalance may be to blame, and it might come down to cost analysis of the problem: is it cheaper to get a sex change to "feel right" inside or take chemical suppliments for the rest of their natural life?

Zylka, it's none of your, mine. or anyone else's business if a person has had a sex change. They are trying to match their gender to the emotions and desires inside per what society tells them is good and proper.

Would you rather a man get a sex change to become a women or remain a man and have homosexual a relationship. Which would you stigmatize less?

[Zylka]

Go for the homosexual relationship

[Ramo]

My, aren't we self-righteous.

Caring human beings? You want to repress these peoples' freedoms. Caring my arse.

I still don't see how sleeping with someone who started out with having the wrong sex amounts to "****ing themselves up." Unless you have serious psychological problems, and in that case a number of things, most of which I'm sure you consider should be legal, would **** you up.

[Zylka]

Originally posted by Ramo

My, aren't we self-righteous.

Caring human beings? You want to repress these peoples' freedoms. Caring my arse.

I still don't see how sleeping with someone who started out with having the wrong sex amounts to "****ing themselves up." Unless you have serious psychological problems, and in that case a number of things, most of which I'm sure you consider should be legal, would **** you up.

Well, you've made your opinion more than clear on this matter. I bet you're a strong supporter of suicide as well? Have fun supporting life ruining decisions, and f*cking man-women, since that kind of thing doesn't seem to bother you

[Boris Godunov]

Re: Sex changes should be made illegal

Let's examine your nonsense point by point:

Originally posted by Zylka
-Sex changes are IMMORAL and disrespectful both to society and one's self

By whose morality? I see nothing immoral in an action that does nothing except to the person involved, and if it's their choice, there's nothing immoral about it all.

Lots of things are considered "immoral" by society that are debatable - including homosexuality, drug use and promiscuous sex. You yourself have admitted to be a frequent participant in the latter two activities. So you have no moral high ground here.

-Sex changes are drastic and misguided attempts at dealing with severe self-esteem problems - these obstacles should be met with therapy and even medication before something as perverse as this

Shows how much you know. Sex change operations are done only after years of intensive therapy and medication in order to prepare the patient for it. Many people who seek the procedure are denied by doctors because it is determined they aren't psycologically fit. Doctors don't let people with fragile psyches undergo this procedure. And other options are explored by the people undergoing it. Do you thing these people really want to go through with such an expensive and drastic procedure if they don't have to?

-Sex changes not only hold the participant as victim, but their future partners, almost always unaware that their "boyfriend" or "girlfriend" has undergone the transformation

This is dumb and unfounded. First of all, it is pretty easy to tell if a person has had a sex change operation once one gets to a certain level of intimacy. Second, your "almost always unaware" statement is simply unsupportable. Plenty of transsexuals live openly as such with partners who are fully aware of their past. Third, how this makes the operation itself subject to illegality is beyond rational explanation.

Equating it to "rape" is ludicrous. Plenty of people are for more dishonest in their obtaining of sexual favors ("Why yes, I'm a doctor..."), and they actually LIE to their partners. Nobody accuses them of rape, because obtaining sex with a willing partner under false pretenses, while not ethical, is not rape or even remotely illegal.

-Many liken sex changes to other human practises of body art - ie) piercing, tatoos and plastic surgery. This is a grossly simplistic method of association propoganda - as the real procedures of body art do not severely mutilate a body's natural function

Drinking, smoking, snorting cocaine, doing heroin and xstacy all cause damage to the body and can seriously impair natural functions. They also will end up being far more debilitating and potentially lethal than a sex change operation. But you obviously don't have a problem with these activities for yourself and consider it your personal right to do them. They also fulfil no psychological need but are rather substances of leisure or addiction. So is it just your blind egotism that allows you to condemn people you don't understand for exercising a choice over their bodies while you go and do lines of coke at will?

-In the event that the natural functions mentioned are crippled and in serious need of repair (from birth and/or deformities in natural growth) - sex changes should be allowed. Yet it must be noted that these occasions are extremely few, and that the use of a sex change should only be as last resort, and never cosmetic

Who generous of you. Too bad for your argument that sex changes are NOT cosmetic procedures. It's not like a boob job. You are not transgendered, so you have no idea what it is like to be a transgendered person. Yet you get up on your grand soapbox and make sweeping condemnations just because it's foreign to you. Thank you, Jesse ****ing Helms. You've got no idea what these people go through, who they are, what they feel nor what they need. You aren't even a licensed psychotherapist or doctor. That just leave you the slot of being a blathering ignoramus and, worse, a hypocrite.

So go out and have your drunken, coke-filled orgies and come back and condemn transgendered people for their temerity in seeking out a procedure that might help them as immoral. It makes for a good laugh, at least.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Zylka
Go for the homosexual relationship

Therein lies the problem: No matter what these people do, they will still be stigmatized by some portion of the general populous. Their only recourse is to do whatever makes THEM 'feel right' inside, regardless what anyone else says. They're trying to fit society's gender mold, so it really ISN'T our place to tell them what to do because they're already trying to appease the Ignoramii of the world. They don't want to be homosexual, either out of disgust, uncomfortablility, fear of themselves or more likely others, or simple disinterest. They want to be straight, and they feel this is the best option for them personally.

[Ramo]

Zylka,

It's a life ruining decision, comparable to suicide?

Are you sure you're not on drugs?

Get a grip, dude.

FYI, I don't believe there should be any legal barriers to suicide provided it's the decision alone of the person who committs suicide. I also don't believe there should be legal barriers to getting drugs, which potentially amounts to suicide, etc.. People ought to take personal responsibility for the decisions they make. It's not your perogitive to tell them what to do.

[Boris Godunov]

Funny how a guy who makes it a habit to snort coke feels free to criticize others for making "life-ruining" decisions.

Even FUNNIER since he admits he doesn't know any transgendered/transsexual folks and feels free to speak for them and say their lives are ruined.

Hypocrisy + Unfounded Assumptions = Ignorance.

[Getao321]

Why do you guys even bother talking to this guy anymore? If this isn't the really funny troll post I think it is, than the fact that talking to a stone wall never makes it move is more than enough reason

[DRoseDARs]

Because it's good exercise to argue/shout others down. Keeps the brain juices flowing, the tongue sharp, and improves your typing skills.

[Getao321]

Must be like trying to stop a colony of ants, for each one you smash, another pops up

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by Getao321
Must be like trying to stop a colony of ants, for each one you smash, another pops up

And then there's the God-complex...

[Zylka]

Re: Re: Sex changes should be made illegal

Originally posted by Boris Godunov

By whose morality? I see nothing immoral in an action that does nothing except to the person involved, and if it's their choice, there's nothing immoral about it all.

By the morality of common sense? I'll try to put this in a different light. Let's say I have an operation to pull my intestines half out of my body and into a clear plastic bag so I can cart them around in a little tray, all because I think it's a good idea. Would you not find that at all immoral? Sorry... you may be right. Immoral is probably not so fitting as the term "disgusting" in describing both of these operations.

Lots of things are considered "immoral" by society that are debatable - including homosexuality, drug use and promiscuous sex. You yourself have admitted to be a frequent participant in the latter two activities. So you have no moral high ground here.

I'm not assuming the moral high ground here. If you want to start threads relative to promiscuous sex and drug use, go right ahead and I'll join you. As for now, we're criticizing something totally different. This is one of the more dissapointing tactics used in the postmodern debate: "HEY WELL YOU DO X AND Y SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CRITICIZE Z!"

Shows how much you know. Sex change operations are done only after years of intensive therapy and medication in order to prepare the patient for it. Many people who seek the procedure are denied by doctors because it is determined they aren't psycologically fit. Doctors don't let people with fragile psyches undergo this procedure. And other options are explored by the people undergoing it. Do you thing these people really want to go through with such an expensive and drastic procedure if they don't have to?

Sorry, the right option has not been chosen. Medication and therapy are realistically available, the knife simply mutilates.

This is dumb and unfounded. First of all, it is pretty easy to tell if a person has had a sex change operation once one gets to a certain level of intimacy. Second, your "almost always unaware" statement is simply unsupportable. Plenty of transsexuals live openly as such with partners who are fully aware of their past. Third, how this makes the operation itself subject to illegality is beyond rational explanation.

Both of our arguments in this matter are equally unsupportable and taken from environmental assumptions. "Plenty" is a little too vague and optimistic in describing transsexuals who live immediately open to their partners, so I have little confidence in the source of your assumption. The worst part though, is that you follow up to say that there is nothing wrong with what you've just argued doesn't happen (Choose a side, please):

Equating it to "rape" is ludicrous. Plenty of people are for more dishonest in their obtaining of sexual favors ("Why yes, I'm a doctor..."), and they actually LIE to their partners. Nobody accuses them of rape, because obtaining sex with a willing partner under false pretenses, while not ethical, is not rape or even remotely illegal.

It is rape. The dishonesty you've described is immoral and pathetic, but there is nothing sexually intrinsic in the facade to constitute rape. There are absolute instances of sexually intrinsic immorality - one partner having herpes and not caring that it might transmit, the other having hidden razors inside of her in a sadistic bid, a man with his genitalia cut off using a man made hole to pleasure - (whatever other crazy sh*t you can come up with) these hidden and sexually primal consequences are crimes.

Drinking, smoking, snorting cocaine, doing heroin and xstacy all cause damage to the body and can seriously impair natural functions. They also will end up being far more debilitating and potentially lethal than a sex change operation. But you obviously don't have a problem with these activities for yourself and consider it your personal right to do them. They also fulfil no psychological need but are rather substances of leisure or addiction. So is it just your blind egotism that allows you to condemn people you don't understand for exercising a choice over their bodies while you go and do lines of coke at will?

Considering drug use and promiscuous sex, I no doubt realize how disastrous to one’s life these can be. In my own experiences, there are both self-improvements and self-defeats in these areas. Fortunately enough though, the defeats have never gotten to a dangerous point – I don’t have an addictive personality and therefore do not fall victim to constant drug use, and I choose my partners carefully and always use protection. Come to think of it though, it would have been nice if someone caring enough would have approached me about such an apparent drug habit, rather than the usual “HEY ZYKLA, R U ON DRUGS STIL? HAR HAR”

Who generous of you. Too bad for your argument that sex changes are NOT cosmetic procedures. It's not like a boob job. You are not transgendered, so you have no idea what it is like to be a transgendered person. Yet you get up on your grand soapbox and make sweeping condemnations just because it's foreign to you. Thank you, Jesse ****ing Helms. You've got no idea what these people go through, who they are, what they feel nor what they need. You aren't even a licensed psychotherapist or doctor. That just leave you the slot of being a blathering ignoramus and, worse, a hypocrite.

I recognize that these people have serious problems, that's why it makes me sick that such a barbaric and self destructive option is available as treatment.

So go out and have your drunken, coke-filled orgies and come back and condemn transgendered people for their temerity in seeking out a procedure that might help them as immoral. It makes for a good laugh, at least.

I'm glad I could make you laugh. Now stop acting like such an indignant child, ok?

[Alinestra Covelia]

If I experience vaginismus whilst my boyfriend is still invaginated, does that mean that he is a man trapped in a woman's body?

If so, do I have to go along to the hospital with him?

[Ramo]

Immoral is probably not so fitting as the term "disgusting" in describing both of these operations.

So you want to criminalize it because it's disgusting? What if someone finds, for instance, your drug habits disgusting? Does that make them justified in criminalizing the drugs you use.

Medication and therapy are realistically available, the knife simply mutilates.

How is this any different from getting surgery to correct one's vision. Isn't that mutilation also?

but there is nothing sexually intrinsic in the facade to constitute rape.

What? Why does the "facade" being "sexually intrinsic" have anything to do with this matter.

And I don't see how that assertion is justified. You're just arbitrary making criteria on which to redefine rape. Most cases of rape don't have anything to do with facades being sexually intrinsic.

Rape is nonconsentual sex. That's all it is. There's nothing about facades, and there are no qualifiers on the facades being sexually intrinsic.

one partner having herpes and not caring that it might transmit, the other having hidden razors inside of her in a sadistic bid, a man with his genitalia cut off using a man made hole to pleasure - (whatever other crazy sh*t you can come up with) these hidden and sexually primal consequences are crimes.

Speaking of idiotic debate techniques, all you've done in this thread has been equating sex changing to things that have absolutely nothing to do with sex changing.

Come to think of it though, it would have been nice if someone caring enough would have approached me about such an apparent drug habit, rather than the usual “HEY ZYKLA, R U ON DRUGS STIL? HAR HAR”

Oh, you poor little baby. Do you need a hug?