Should Russia Break Apart Into Smaller Units.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by XarXo
Uzbekistan is the best example of how an old republic can start a modernization process (and not only by petroleum extraction)

LOL, Uzbekistan is one of the most corrupt, undemocratic and anti-reform countries of the ex-USSR.

so... Why not Yakutia?

Do you know that despite it being called Yakutia, Yakuts are an ethnic minority there?

A truly federation of countries is the only solution.

Agree with that, expect that it should be a federation of regions, not of countries.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


No. In 1997 the sides agreed to postpone the issue of independence for 5 years.

Then why talk of them messing up their independence? If Russia had been interested in granting independence then Russia would have done so.

LOL! They indeed prepared so well (for the Russian federal money, btw) that they were even able to attack Dagestan (a republic within the Russian Federation, if you don't know).

Another republic. Maybe you guys need to look at how you organize your Federation. You have some areas with more control than others and you have some areas with special treatment. Perhaps Russia should think about changing their system, unless of course the only way to keep a people inside Russia is to grant them special rights here and there.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Then why talk of them messing up their independence?

Because they were completely independent, only unrecognized. But, as a compensation, they were flooded with federal money.

If Russia had been interested in granting independence then Russia would have done so.

If they didn't screw up so badly, this could have happened this year.

Another republic. Maybe you guys need to look at how you organize your Federation. You have some areas with more control than others and you have some areas with special treatment. Perhaps Russia should think about changing their system, unless of course the only way to keep a people inside Russia is to grant them special rights here and there.

This is a big problem indeed. Although all subjects of the Federation are supposed to be equal, republics are more equal than the regions. This comes from the Soviet era, when republics indeed had more rights by the constitution. You know, it's a delicate matter to intervene in republics. You are always at risk of being accused of imperial ambitions, even if you are just trying to make things right.

[Serb]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You sold it fair and square. Don't start whining now because we got the better end of the deal.

As Azazel pointed
1)we consider it was rented
2) Even if it was sold as you thing, you didn't payed entire summ as promised.
The deal is broken.

[GePap]

Mega states such as Russia, Canda, china, the US, and Brazil make reading a map so much easier. NOt having the whole of the northern Eurasian landmass fall under a single political organization? NEVER! YOU CAN PRY MY ATLAS FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS!

[Serb]

Originally posted by Joseph
The problem that I have with Chechnya is that they or least some in Chechnya want it to become a Fundamentalist Islamic State. Then OBL would be free to move in and then one day the Russian and the US together would have invade and run him out, remove the goverment and install a friendly gov.

Well, actually they already lived in such state. In 1996 the cease-fire threaty were signed between Russian and Chechen leadership. In accordance with this deal Russia withdrawn ALL military and police forces, and let them live like they want- no Russian laws, no Russian government, no taxes into federal budjet, no anything Russian. They were granted de-facto independance and were free to anything they want and live like they want. The status of Chechnya should be determinated after 5 years, untill this moment they were COMPLETELY independent.
And they chosed their way- they established typical Fundamentalist Islamic State of Taliban's type, with all "nice" traits of such regimes- Sharia law- a code of laws where such things as stonned to death, cut-off hands, cut throats, cut-off heads, consider as right punishment for say theivery or homosexuality. With such trait as religious intolerance, if you don't support their Vahhabite teachings- you are deadman. National intolerance- they cut-off throats to all remaining Russians and non-Chechens. Dictatorship, Slavery, once again for you guys who didn't understood, S L A V E R Y, kidnaping, drugs, smugglery of arms and human organs, etc. An exelent state.
During those 3 years when they were independent, they keep attacking us, because for them it was both- fight for their idea -A united Islamic Khalifat (from Tatarstan to Indonesia) and profitable buisness. For every attack vs. Russia, for evey Russian death they received money from their sponsors and masters from Afghanistan and this guy with beard so well-known to you. OBL send a bunch of his best students and emmisares in Chechnya. Hattab was one of his best students, he commanded group of Chechen forces for a long time until wasn't killed.
So, those guys already lived in such state and when in 1999 they first- blew-up several civilian apartment buildings in several Russian cities including our capital and after this invaded Dagestan, our government launched a counter-strike, because all limits of our paitience were broken.

Serb a question. Siberia is a big place. Where in Siberia do you live? How many miles from Moscow and North of Kazakhstan or Mongolia?
The reason that I'm asking is because I will probably not ever be able to travel to Siberia.
I live about 40 to 45 miles north east of San Francisco, California.
1.6 km per mile.

I live in Omsk city, it's on south of Siberia, my region has common border with Kazakhstan. It's a couple of thousands killomiters from Moscow for sure You can find it on Sprayber map on first page, it's marked with OMS letters. (Just look on Russian territory North of Kazakhstan frontier)
Well, if you ever be here, be my guest

Edited: grammar errors.

[The Vagabond]

Glad to see you back, Serb. Tough times: these b@st@rds are voting in favor of dissolving Mother Russia.

[Serb]

Taz, I think you put too hard restrictions, just want to notice that Sonic is known....[self-censored, Hi, Ming] I mean he always have different answers. In one of his previous posts he said he don't speak Russian, now he speaks .Also, Lithuanian press absolutely biased against Russia. Not to mention they treat people who call themselves ambasadors of Chechenian government (I mean who proved to be terrorists, their so-called president Maskhadov admited himself that he gave the order to took hostages in Nord-Ost, not to mention Russian evidences that their leadership responsible for devastation of apartment buildings in Russian cities in 1999 wich caused death of several hundreds of civilians including children, their responsibility for innumerous terrorist attacks and various crimes including slavery and their close connection with Al-Qida) with respect and as true representatives of Chechnya, build embasies for them, etc.
Also I want to mention that he consider death warrant for homosexuality, cut-off hands for theivery is right things. And he is an author of famous polls "what is your race? Black, white, yellow or perhaps red?" and "the reasons of undevelopment in Africa, (in other words- "perhaps the reason why Africa is so undeveloped is their race?")

Have a nice day.



edited: grammar

[Serb]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Glad to see you back, Serb.

Hi, buddy

Tough times: these b@st@rds are voting in favor of dissolving Mother Russia.

Freaks, we will never allow this. (it's line from anekdote)
Sign on picture- our forces innumerous (sp?).

Edited by Ming:
Keep it in English Serb... or you go back on vacation.

Edited by Serb: Ok, I'll try to translate what I've said.

[alexchest]

It's all swell for people across an ocean to divide up our country while, Canada, for example, trembles at the hands of Quebec separatists every few years. Yet when the question of separation comes up, no-one agrees to it.

We already split up in '91, and that brought Russia, not to say the countries that broke off, only bad things. All of the resources we poured into these republics for 60-some years are now being used by the local strongmen for personal gain. If we even let Chechnya go, we are setting a precedent for other regions to break away, and no doubt, this will lead to even greater chaos and loss of Russia's power. First it's Chechnya and next it's half of the Far East!

BTW, Serb, I'm from Omsk too (Chkalovskii Pos.)

[ravagon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The right to self-determination is one of the most basic of rights. The Russians have no right to keep other people's from being free.

Good in principle but a line has to be drawn somewhere. Look at the US civil war. Did the south have the right to self-determination (That might bring MtG running )?
What would happen to states/territories cut off from the rest of the country? Landlocked and subject to overland trade routes being cut/taxed by newly-independent micro-nations?
What happens if the rest of the street you live in decides to break from Chicago and put toll booths up at the end of the street?

[ravagon]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Tough times: these b@st@rds are voting in favor of dissolving Mother Russia.

You could always start your own poll to dissolve the US y'know.

On second thoughts, a certain chap whose name escapes me at the moment .. starts with an M, ends in a g and has an i and an n somewhere in the middle ... might not approve of that right now ...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Exactly. This will make it easier for China to grab Siberia, and will leave the European part of Russia without resourses.

A large part of Siberia was originally part of Manchu, which was later incorporated into China when the Manchus founded the Qing dynasty. Russia later grabbed the territories through unequal treaties. Lenin promised to abolish all such treaties inherited from Tsarist Russia and return the lands to their rightful owners, it's just that Stalin didn't follow through on that promise.

[Serb]

Originally posted by alexchest
BTW, Serb, I'm from Omsk too (Chkalovskii Pos.)

I can't believe it!!! What a small, small world.
To bad I can't add a couple of Russian words.
You know there is one guy who always watching you and if you say smth on Russian, you may visit nice place known as Mingapulco, even if all what you'll say is just a hi, to men who live in your city.
So, I have to say it on English- I'm from down-town.
Welcome to our club

[Felch]

Originally posted by Serb
1)we consider it was rented
2) Even if it was sold as you thing, you didn't payed entire summ as promised.
The deal is broken.

That's special. Now come over and take it, if you dare.