Up to 700 people believed to be held hostage in Moscow

[Lonestar]

:: Clears throat :: In all fairness to the Russians...they didn't return to Chechnya until AFTER those apartment Building bombings....

[Saint Marcus]

Does Russia has any claim to Chechnya except "we want it"?

yes, cause the territory was russian to begin with. the chechens just want out. it's like a more extreme version of the basques in spain.

Did we know who was responsible for 9/11? No.

officially, no. but it didn't take long before we knew arabs were behind it.

[Sonic]

Lonestar, as I claimed before nobody truly knoes who was responsible for the bombings.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Sonic
Lonestar, as I claimed before nobody truly knoes who was responsible for the bombings.

Possibly so. But by that token, no one "Truly knows" Theodore Kascynski was the Unibomber. We just have circumstantial evidence and a load of coincidental pmtaches to the profile.

Porbaly the Russian Security came to the conclusion like this;

(1) The people who bombed us, dislike us.

(2)Who are they? The Baltics, Muslims, and Westerners.

(3)Whos' likely? Westerners are bailing out Russia on IMF lans, The Baltics probaly won't do anything that would jeopordize foreign aid. muslim Terrorist MO is to blow stuff up.

(4) Muslims in Chechnya want Dagestan to be independant.

(5) Therefore, it is likely the Chechens did it.

[Sonic]

Baltics doesn't dislike Russians at all. This is a wrong opinion, probably you also got trolled by Serb. Neither we are dependent on foreign aid from Russia.

Muslims in Chechnya mostly wants Chechnya (Ichkeria) to be independent, not Dagestan.

BTW, there was also a document movie in which it was claimed that Russian Security itself perhaps was responsible for bombings to have a pretext to invade Chechenya. I don't know how much truth there is in that film however.

There could be much more theories - some bombing maniac, mafia (probably some important people lived in houses), etc.

[Serb]

So, finnaly you turn it to Russia-bashing crap. I'm not surpised. What else should happen before you start to understand who are you trying to protect? The largest took of hostages in humman history is happen (CNN is wrong, in Budenocsk they took about 500 men, not 1000) and this is not enough for you to understand who are those guys freedom fighters or ****ing terrorists. Great, just great.

Originally posted by Sonic
Serb, you can't compare Chechens in Moscow and Chechens in Chechenya the same as you can't compare Arabs in Emirates and Arabs in Palestine. These Chechens in Moscow probably mostly knows what war in Chechenya is only from news, while ones in Chechenya sees the war everyday. War is terrible thing Serb, seeing people, including civilians, dying everyday makes people to think that human life is something unvaluable and could be sacrificed for "good" purposes.

Say it to them, say it to Chechens who live in Moscow that are not true Chechens anymore. I wish I could see what they will do with you if you says this to them. All of them have relatives in Chechnya and visit it very often. Also you seem to didn't understand what I said. Do you saw a single Chechen woman in Chechnya who laughting and celabrating this act, like we could saw after Sept 11? I didn't. What I saw, that they have meetings there where they curse terrorists who did this.

However I do thin it would be wisest for Russia to grant Chechenya independence. Probably not as an answer to this terror act, as such thing would just emphasize terrorism all over the world, but later. I think Chechenya should already be given independence and the current war shouldn't even be started.

Brilliant. Nothing changes. Our terrorists are evil monsters who must be destroyed, Russian terrrorists are freedom fighters, rebels, but not in any case are terrorists. ****
Do you have any idea why it was started? NO. You see everything only from one point of view, from terrorists point of view, from point of view created especially for you by the same people who held hundreds of hostages at this current moment. You don't want to hear our point of view. You prefer to believe in propaganda created by those "people". Nothing changes.
back to this total bull****-

I think Chechenya should already be given independence and the current war shouldn't even be started.

This war was started because of such acts. WE HAVE RIGHT TO DEFEND OURSELVES AS ANY NATION OF THE WORLD HAVE THE SAME RIGHT. IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
Chechen war for independence was over in 1996. This war was over by they toatal victory. In 1996 the head of security concil of Russian Federation general Lebed signed capitulation in city Hasaviyurt. They won. All Russian millitary and police forces were withdrawn from Chechnya. THERE WERE NO SINGLE RUSSIAN SOLDIER OR POLICEMAN IN CHECHNYA FOR THREE YEARS. There were no single Russian institution of power in Chechnya. Not a single Russian law had power in Chechnya. Chechnya remained part of Russia only on paper. De-facto it was absolutely independent.
Let's see what type of "state" they esablished during this 3 years. They created a "state" based on extremist fundamentalist medieval law known as "Shariat" or "Sahari" (I don't know how to say it on English). The same law as their masters used in Afghanistan. They created absolutely the same type of state as Taliban was. An extremly fundamentalist state.
They created "state" where slavery, yes REAL SLAVERY was a NORMAL thing. Where human life cost very little. Where NO place for FREEDOM. Where NO place for BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Where NO place for freedom of RELIGION, not only they killed Christians but Muslims who didn't supported their "Vahhabite" teachings.
During those 3 years they:
They stole THOUSANDS of Russian citizens and used them as SLAVE. You may not believe me, but this is not an exxageration. THOSANDS AND USED FOR REAL SLAVERY It's your ****ing luck that you don't saw those people when they were liberated. They didn't look like humans anymore, they looks like victims of nazi death camps.
They stole thousands ussian and some foreign citizens (including members of humanitarian organisations), to receive ransom for them. To ensure that they are not kidding they often cut off fingers of their vitims and send it to relatives, and do it again and again untill ransom wasn't received. Ask Jews about 10 or 11 years old boy (I don't remember) who returned to Israel after he was liberated by Russian specnaz almost without fingers on his palm. Come on Isreltians tell him about this boy, if you remember about him. It was 3 or so years ago.
They Attacked Russian Federation throught terrorist act. During this time here were 2000 explosions almost 400 of them are 100% prooved that it was their work. And guilty for this already in jails.
They attacked Russian Federation throught took of Hostages. When they captured a hospital and took pregent womens and just borned childs in hostages.
They attack Russian Federation through explosion of apartment buildings in Russian cities such as Pervomaisk, Kyzlyar and Moscow. When several hundreds peacfully sleeping civilians were slain.
And finnaly, they attcked Russian Federation when THEY launched an INVASION in Dagestan.
They started second war and this war has nothing common with war for independence because they already were independent when THEY attacked us. This was a war of TERRORISTS vs. Russian Federation. As part of GLOBAL TERRORISM vs. ALL CIVILIZED COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.

President of Chechenya Akhmad Kadyrov as far as I know is put there by Russian government. However enlighten me if I am not right.

And do you know who is this man? He is one of the veterans of first Chechen war. He was one of the most feirce fighters who fought vs. Russian forces during first war. Do you ever ask yourself why people who fought vs. Russians after three years of de-facto independence, after three years of nightmare which Vahhabites bring on Chechen land joined Russians in second war vs. Vahhabites? If you think that Chechens liked to live in fundamentalist state Vahhabite created during 1996-1999. Then see what type of "state" it was, or ask Afghani people do they love to live under Taliban? Because Taliban is masters of Chechen Vahhabites and "state" their established in Afghanistan was avbslotely the same as Chechen Vahhabites established in Chechnya in 1996-1999. Or you could ask yourself why Dagestan PEOPLE, just PEOPLE, LOCALS who live in Dagestan all Dagestan people as one man stand up to resist Vahhabite invasion in Dagestan in 1999. I'll give you a hint: they saw what's goin on in Chechnya. they saw how people tortured here, they saw slavery, they saw how Christians and Orthodox Muslims were killed there. They saw what type of houses they build there. sure you don't know that all modern houses of warlords build in Chechnya had special "torture chabers" and rooms for slaves as part of overall house architecture. They saw all those things, and they didn't wanted to live in such "state". Thats why people of Dagestan (who are Muslims btw, real Muslims not Vahhabite) gathered militia and resisted their invasion.
It's the same reason why Chechen veterans of first war fought on Russian side during second war. It's the same reason why Chechens today serve in local police forces. They already lived in independent state undre Vahhabite regime. And they perfectly know what is it.

I by the way doubt Chechenyans actually organised blow-ups of buildings in Russia.

Not Chechens. How many times I should say. Chechen people and terrorists it's different thing. The "people" who did this come from Chechnya it is 100% prooved. Two of the oranisers of this terrible crime already in prison. The last is believed to hide in Pankisy Georgia. Soon will get him too. Our security services have 100% evidences.

When will Russia drop these imperial traditions?

THIS IS YOUR MAIN PROBLEM. You still see the shadow of Soviet Union. You still think that Russian are enemies. You still believe in anti-Russian propaganda like in times of Cold war. You still have image of evil Russian motster, an image create for enemy in Cold war. When terrorists creat such propaganda they call evidences of Russian atrocities you gladly believe them, because you see what you want to see. I saw how they create such proofs. I saw one of those "unedited" videos. Where two people wearing Russian uniform beating civilian, steal his car, etc and during this talking on Russian. But when they already in the car. They talk on Arab saying Allah akbar and laugh. You prefer to believe in such proofs then their own videos, a videos created by terrorsts where they cut off people's heads. Were they cut off people fingers. A videos with executions of hostages and slaves created by terrorist to show to their masters as proof of their war vs. sinners. (and to receive money of course.)
Sure, every war has its criminals. But aside those terrorists Russia is democratic country and we punish our war criminals. We PUNISH them. Do you have any idea how many soldiers went through tribunal for war related crimes in Russia?
They AWARD their war criminals. AWARD "people" who took hospital with just borned babies in hostages, AWARD people who blew-up apartment buildings. They AWARD them, because for them it is not a crime. It's a right thing to do- a war vs. unbelievers.

You do not understand that Soviet Union has gone. That Russia is democratic country now. And you prefer to believe to terrorist then to young, but DEMOCRACY.
Fine. Right now houndreds of my countryman and by the way YOUR countrymans are held hostages. WHAT else should happen before you'll realize that those "people" are terrorists and that Russia is fight vs. TERRORISTS.. What else should happen before you'll realize who is your enemy and who is your freind?WHAT?

I will not disscus this anymore.
I'm going to watch TV. Those bastards promised to release children at last.

[Eli]

Originally posted by David Floyd


The vital difference is that my ancestors stole land from the ancestors of Amerinds today - no one is still alive who was involved in that.

Ah... So you had your 200 years to exterminate the Indians and now it's ok because they are dead?

Will the Israeli occupation cease to be wrong in a few decades? Will it cease to be wrong if we kill all Palestinians today?

[Hurricane]

Originally posted by Eli
Ah... So you had your 200 years to exterminate the Indians and now it's ok because they are dead?

Will the Israeli occupation cease to be wrong in a few decades? Will it cease to be wrong if we kill all Palestinians today?

To be cynical, yes. The problem is of course that nobody will leave you alone for 200 years.

[Pekka]

I saw some video clips on news that said they are not coming out alive anyway, just like I suspected in the first place. They won't become POWs or anything like that, or at least I think that's how they think. And there are women involved.. they are more committed to this, so I'm afraid it's going to end in a big blast. Too many terrorist inside..
And these are not freedom fighters. Freedom fighting is usually good, and this is not good. Maybe they were freedom fighters at start, but now they made a mistake, chose wrong target and became terrorist at the very same moment.

[Sava]

The Chechens are scum. While the Russians and their own imperialism don't make themselves good guys, the Chechens are no better than Albanians. A bunch of drug smuggling, black market terrorists.

The Chechen's use of violence against innocents only further proves my point. This hostage situation is sickening.

[Freed]

Originally posted by Serb
So, finnaly you turn it to Russia-bashing crap. I'm not surpised. What else should happen before you start to understand who are you trying to protect? The largest took of hostages in humman history is happen (CNN is wrong, in Budenocsk they took about 500 men, not 1000) and this is not enough for you to understand who are those guys freedom fighters or ****ing terrorists. Great, just great.

Say it to them, say it to Chechens who live in Moscow that are not true Chechens anymore. I wish I could see what they will do with you if you says this to them. All of them have relatives in Chechnya and visit it very often. Also you seem to didn't understand what I said. Do you saw a single Chechen woman in Chechnya who laughting and celabrating this act, like we could saw after Sept 11? I didn't. What I saw, that they have meetings there where they curse terrorists who did this.


Brilliant. Nothing changes. Our terrorists are evil monsters who must be destroyed, Russian terrrorists are freedom fighters, rebels, but not in any case are terrorists. ****
Do you have any idea why it was started? NO. You see everything only from one point of view, from terrorists point of view, from point of view created especially for you by the same people who held hundreds of hostages at this current moment. You don't want to hear our point of view. You prefer to believe in propaganda created by those "people". Nothing changes.
back to this total bull****-

This war was started because of such acts. WE HAVE RIGHT TO DEFEND OURSELVES AS ANY NATION OF THE WORLD HAVE THE SAME RIGHT. IS IT SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND?
Chechen war for independence was over in 1996. This war was over by they toatal victory. In 1996 the head of security concil of Russian Federation general Lebed signed capitulation in city Hasaviyurt. They won. All Russian millitary and police forces were withdrawn from Chechnya. THERE WERE NO SINGLE RUSSIAN SOLDIER OR POLICEMAN IN CHECHNYA FOR THREE YEARS. There were no single Russian institution of power in Chechnya. Not a single Russian law had power in Chechnya. Chechnya remained part of Russia only on paper. De-facto it was absolutely independent.
Let's see what type of "state" they esablished during this 3 years. They created a "state" based on extremist fundamentalist medieval law known as "Shariat" or "Sahari" (I don't know how to say it on English). The same law as their masters used in Afghanistan. They created absolutely the same type of state as Taliban was. An extremly fundamentalist state.
They created "state" where slavery, yes REAL SLAVERY was a NORMAL thing. Where human life cost very little. Where NO place for FREEDOM. Where NO place for BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS. Where NO place for freedom of RELIGION, not only they killed Christians but Muslims who didn't supported their "Vahhabite" teachings.
During those 3 years they:
They stole THOUSANDS of Russian citizens and used them as SLAVE. You may not believe me, but this is not an exxageration. THOSANDS AND USED FOR REAL SLAVERY It's your ****ing luck that you don't saw those people when they were liberated. They didn't look like humans anymore, they looks like victims of nazi death camps.
They stole thousands ussian and some foreign citizens (including members of humanitarian organisations), to receive ransom for them. To ensure that they are not kidding they often cut off fingers of their vitims and send it to relatives, and do it again and again untill ransom wasn't received. Ask Jews about 10 or 11 years old boy (I don't remember) who returned to Israel after he was liberated by Russian specnaz almost without fingers on his palm. Come on Isreltians tell him about this boy, if you remember about him. It was 3 or so years ago.
They Attacked Russian Federation throught terrorist act. During this time here were 2000 explosions almost 400 of them are 100% prooved that it was their work. And guilty for this already in jails.
They attacked Russian Federation throught took of Hostages. When they captured a hospital and took pregent womens and just borned childs in hostages.
They attack Russian Federation through explosion of apartment buildings in Russian cities such as Pervomaisk, Kyzlyar and Moscow. When several hundreds peacfully sleeping civilians were slain.
And finnaly, they attcked Russian Federation when THEY launched an INVASION in Dagestan.
They started second war and this war has nothing common with war for independence because they already were independent when THEY attacked us. This was a war of TERRORISTS vs. Russian Federation. As part of GLOBAL TERRORISM vs. ALL CIVILIZED COUNTRIES OF THE WORLD.


And do you know who is this man? He is one of the veterans of first Chechen war. He was one of the most feirce fighters who fought vs. Russian forces during first war. Do you ever ask yourself why people who fought vs. Russians after three years of de-facto independence, after three years of nightmare which Vahhabites bring on Chechen land joined Russians in second war vs. Vahhabites? If you think that Chechens liked to live in fundamentalist state Vahhabite created during 1996-1999. Then see what type of "state" it was, or ask Afghani people do they love to live under Taliban? Because Taliban is masters of Chechen Vahhabites and "state" their established in Afghanistan was avbslotely the same as Chechen Vahhabites established in Chechnya in 1996-1999. Or you could ask yourself why Dagestan PEOPLE, just PEOPLE, LOCALS who live in Dagestan all Dagestan people as one man stand up to resist Vahhabite invasion in Dagestan in 1999. I'll give you a hint: they saw what's goin on in Chechnya. they saw how people tortured here, they saw slavery, they saw how Christians and Orthodox Muslims were killed there. They saw what type of houses they build there. sure you don't know that all modern houses of warlords build in Chechnya had special "torture chabers" and rooms for slaves as part of overall house architecture. They saw all those things, and they didn't wanted to live in such "state". Thats why people of Dagestan (who are Muslims btw, real Muslims not Vahhabite) gathered militia and resisted their invasion.
It's the same reason why Chechen veterans of first war fought on Russian side during second war. It's the same reason why Chechens today serve in local police forces. They already lived in independent state undre Vahhabite regime. And they perfectly know what is it.


Not Chechens. How many times I should say. Chechen people and terrorists it's different thing. The "people" who did this come from Chechnya it is 100% prooved. Two of the oranisers of this terrible crime already in prison. The last is believed to hide in Pankisy Georgia. Soon will get him too. Our security services have 100% evidences.


THIS IS YOUR MAIN PROBLEM. You still see the shadow of Soviet Union. You still think that Russian are enemies. You still believe in anti-Russian propaganda like in times of Cold war. You still have image of evil Russian motster, an image create for enemy in Cold war. When terrorists creat such propaganda they call evidences of Russian atrocities you gladly believe them, because you see what you want to see. I saw how they create such proofs. I saw one of those "unedited" videos. Where two people wearing Russian uniform beating civilian, steal his car, etc and during this talking on Russian. But when they already in the car. They talk on Arab saying Allah akbar and laugh. You prefer to believe in such proofs then their own videos, a videos created by terrorsts where they cut off people's heads. Were they cut off people fingers. A videos with executions of hostages and slaves created by terrorist to show to their masters as proof of their war vs. sinners. (and to receive money of course.)
Sure, every war has its criminals. But aside those terrorists Russia is democratic country and we punish our war criminals. We PUNISH them. Do you have any idea how many soldiers went through tribunal for war related crimes in Russia?
They AWARD their war criminals. AWARD "people" who took hospital with just borned babies in hostages, AWARD people who blew-up apartment buildings. They AWARD them, because for them it is not a crime. It's a right thing to do- a war vs. unbelievers.

You do not understand that Soviet Union has gone. That Russia is democratic country now. And you prefer to believe to terrorist then to young, but DEMOCRACY.
Fine. Right now houndreds of my countryman and by the way YOUR countrymans are held hostages. WHAT else should happen before you'll realize that those "people" are terrorists and that Russia is fight vs. TERRORISTS.. What else should happen before you'll realize who is your enemy and who is your freind?WHAT?

I will not disscus this anymore.
I'm going to watch TV. Those bastards promised to release children at last.

You thought you could shut me up?
Yep. It’s Serb again.
I would like to know why I was banned? Why I wasn’t informed that I’m banned? Are you afraid of me, because I was telling the truth about Chechnya? How brave, you locked me up and even didn’t tell to me and to everyone why are you doing this. No pm no e-mail, no explanation in on-topic.

I demand explanation. Come on you mods. Tell to everyone that you have banned me because you don’t want to tell me the truth, to tell about Russian position about this crisis. And you call this democracy? I see now you are very democratic. Always hear only one side, the side you want to hear.
And by the way, why not only I’m unable to post, but also can’t send/receive private messages. That’s why I was forced to create DL, I can’t send PM to moderators.
Come on Ming explain what’s going on. Who disabled my login?

Thank you for your time and your unbiased, democratic approach. You can disable this DL now. I want my name back.
P.S. This is not a joke or cheap farce. I demand explanation and you must provide this explanation if you call yourself a democratic society.
P.P.S. Don’t send PM please, I can’t read them.

[DanS]

Serb: I think many here are very skeptical about what comes out of the Russian press, since there is undue influence from the government about what is said or written. When you say that we should believe an official source over an independent report, I just laugh. Further, the ill-disciplined state of Russia's regular troops is well established, and credible reports of atrocities in Chechnya are most often believed. Our reporters aren't allowed in, so we assume the worst (rightly).

That said, after reading the international press, it's really odd how these things get twisted to create a conspiracy theory where the victims are ultimately at fault. For instance, the CIA and Mossad were said to run the planes into the WTC in order to create a pretense for attacking Afghanistan and now Iraq. Or Australian and CIA agents blowing up the nightclub in Bali in order for a pretext to pressure Indonesia in the war on terror. We can rest assured that there will be some story about Russia staging this whole thing.

I think we in the West were all too willing to believe that the 1999 terrorist attacks across Russia were just an excuse by Russia to attack Chechnya. The numbers weren't to be believed because they came from official sources and weren't verified. But I'm coming to think that this was just lazy thinking on our part, and for that I'm sorry. This whole Chechnya affair should be evaluated.

I hope as many as possible come out alive.

[Ming]

Serb... did you try to change your email address in your profile. Your status shows as "awaiting email confirmation". I have changed your status back to registered member, so Serb should work now again.

I've checked the mod logs, and it doesn't appear anybody has taken any action against your account in the last few days, so I am assuming that either you did attempt to change your email address, or the email in your profile is no longer a valid address, or that the data base has screwed up.

And in the future... when you have a problem with your account, you can always email us instead of creating a DL and posting a foaming at the mouth tirade... I'm tempted to ban your for real for creating a DL...

[muxec]

The last terract in Russia proves again the fact of Islamic danger and shows that each human world-wide is in danger. The recent years show that Islamic terrorism is war with no exact target to strike back. Armed people can fight armed people but nobody can defend civilians. The amount of people being killed by terrorists grows now very fast. Few years before they have killed tens of people in Israel, now they kill thousands of people in USA, Russia, Indonesia, India. After few years they will kill hundreds of thousands people in Turkey and Western Europe. And the must awful thing that countries of the world can not unite. Russia supports Iraq, USA refuse to let Russia attack Chechnya. But before solving the problem we must find out the roots of the problem.
The first and must fearful fact that terrorist are supported by civilians of Islamic countries. Governments of these countries educate their children so that they can not analyze the information that they get. We must realize that terrorist are civilians. Civilians support terrorists also because they think that terrorists fight their ethnic rights.
The second fact is related to those countries who think “we are invincible”. Countries like France, Scandinavian countries, and some other countries, who never suffered from terror, think that Arabs will never strike them. It is wrong. Now 10% of people who live in Advanced European countries are Islamic Arabs. But they are still people of Arabic ideology, so can strike countries that they live in. Also lots of Arabs in other countries of Western world, in USA for example.
The third fact is availability of nukes to some Arabic regimes. Pakistan is country that support (they say that they support USA, but it is empty word) terrorism.
The only way of stopping civilian support is ... killing civilians. In war, when they kill us, civilians, we must do the same. Russia must say to terrorist who captured 700 hostages, that for each killed hostage 100 Chechnyan civilians will be killed. And Israel must say that we’ll burn Palestinian village for each explosion, and USA must strike Iraq.
There is no way to show peaceful countries, who never suffered, the danger of terrorism. They think that terror will never cross their border. So we must wait for explosions in these countries. And stopping Arabian immigration to West is also required to slow Arabic terror.
But we have no way to fight nukes. USA, Russia, Germany are developing now the new anti-missile defence system, but it is very expensive and even intercepted nukes damage ecology a lot. And logic of Arabs is “we would better kill ourselves and enemies, than live together with their demands”.
I have nothing to add to this pessimistic analysis.

[DanS]

"The only way of stopping civilian support is ... killing civilians. In war, when they kill us, civilians, we must do the same. Russia must say to terrorist who captured 700 hostages, that for each killed hostage 100 Chechnyan civilians will be killed. And Israel must say that we’ll burn Palestinian village for each explosion, and USA must strike Iraq."

In my opinion, this line of thought is monstrous.