Up to 700 people believed to be held hostage in Moscow

[Pavlov]

How long have they been in there, 24 hours? No surprise if the hostages are beginning to feel sympathetic to their captors.

[Pekka]

Maybe they're just wanting to get heard by the whole world.. but this is bad stuff.
It can turn very nasty from the ugliness it already is.
I fear that they have no intentions what so ever to come out alive in the first place. There's just no way Russia will retreat in one week, if at all.

I hope all the hostages will get out safe and this will end soon. It's a shame to Chechen cause for sure. They can't be called freedom fighters. These are terrorists.

[Sonic]

Serb, you can't compare Chechens in Moscow and Chechens in Chechenya the same as you can't compare Arabs in Emirates and Arabs in Palestine. These Chechens in Moscow probably mostly knows what war in Chechenya is only from news, while ones in Chechenya sees the war everyday. War is terrible thing Serb, seeing people, including civilians, dying everyday makes people to think that human life is something unvaluable and could be sacrificed for "good" purposes.

President of Chechenya Akhmad Kadyrov as far as I know is put there by Russian government. However enlighten me if I am not right.

I do agree Chechenyans most likely will never get independence, but then again, you can never be sure. In 70s nobody would have said that USSR will collapse in 20 years.

However I do thin it would be wisest for Russia to grant Chechenya independence. Probably not as an answer to this terror act, as such thing would just emphasize terrorism all over the world, but later. I think Chechenya should already be given independence and the current war shouldn't even be started. I by the way doubt Chechenyans actually organised blow-ups of buildings in Russia. Chechenya is just a very small part of Russian territory. It means almost nothing, except the value of propaganda (it wouldn't seem right by some people that they were given independence). When will Russia drop these imperial traditions?

[Eli]

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/10/24/38616.html

[David Floyd]

I think Chechenya should already be given independence and the current war shouldn't even be started.

[Eli]

Does Russia has any claim to Chechnya except "we want it"?

I mean... It's not a border province with another hostile state like Kashmir, it has no significant Russian population(I think) like the Pal territories and Kashmir... And it's not half of the country like Judea&Samaria.

[David Floyd]

And it's not half of the country like Judea&Samaria.

Ah, there it is. The justification for Israel's occupation of Palestinian lands. "They're half the country".

Hmmm...so then, by your argument, the US had the same right to occupy Amerind lands, on the basis that these lands were huge in relation to the size of the US (at that time), correct?

Or, maybe China had a justification to occupy Tibet, because of the fact that Tibet is a fairly large area.

Or for that matter, Germany had a right to take Poland and the rest of Eastern Europe - that was a significant chunk of territory, and dammit, Germany needed Lebensraum, eh?

Sorry, Eli, that argument's not gonna cut it.

[Eli]

Oh great. So we both agree that you live on occupied land. Now please follow your morals and move to Britain.

[Az]

ME thread. N-O-O-o-o-o.......

[Sirotnikov]

the Israeli nonchalance (they should f*cking know better!!! ),

Ge hit yourself in the head - you're a biggot.

Suddenly when non-jewish occupiers are being put in danger - you're all sensetive and caring.

Plus it was yet another great opportunity to slam the Israelis.

In any case, the Israeli "nonchalance" does not at all suggest we don't care. The Israeli population on Apolyton is almost entirely made of Russian emigrants who most likely have families left there. Why are we so "cool":

a) we are (sadly) used to such situations
b) we have good faith in russia's security organs
c) at the time, there were zero casualties
d) we expect the situation to be solved quickly and effectively



Now to quote the article Eli linked to:

MOSSAD Offers Help to Russian Special Services

If necessary, Israel is ready to provide any needed aid to solve the hostage problem in Moscow, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told Russian Ambassador Gennedy Tarasov.

Sharon also says that Israel “declares its universal support of the Russian-led war against terrorism in Chechnya.” The Israeli prime minister expressed his sympathy and support of the Russian people and President Putin.

The Hebrew word Mossad (the name can be translated into Russian as the Institute for Analytical and Special Services, or just the Institute) is as clear to any educated man as the Russian word for the English “satellite.” The Mossad is Israel’s calling card, not only its special service.

Catch of Eichmann; the tragic fate of super agent Eli Kohen; the legendary raid to Beirut, which ended in liquidation of the Palestine terrorist leaders; the release of hostages on Entebbe; (Siro: those latters were not made into effect by mossad agents, but by the Elite Sayeret Matkal (General Staff Recoinessanse). Mossad simply provided the data) the liquidation of the Iraqi nuclear reactor; and many actions of this kind have already gone down in the history of special services. The Mossad is the department of foreign political intelligence, Israel’s equivalent of the CIA.

As for the Entebbe operation in 1976, for the release of hostages from the plane hijacked on Entebbe (Uganda), the Mossad collected information by sending its agents and with effective cover to the hostage release operation. Armed forces provided all necessary material and technical support for the operation; they sent an assault detachment especially for the operation. Israel’s commandos neutralized the guards of the Uganda army, liquidated the terrorists, within a 53-minute operation, and returned to Israel together with the released hostages (one commando and three hostages were killed during the operation).

[David Floyd]

So we both agree that you live on occupied land. Now please follow your morals and move to Britain.

The vital difference is that my ancestors stole land from the ancestors of Amerinds today - no one is still alive who was involved in that.

As opposed to Israel, of course.

[Lord Merciless]

It appears to me that Al-Qaeda/Radical Muslims are trying to fight everyone else in the world. You guys should be careful though, because if you piss off us sufficiently, future generations may only learn Islam from history books.

[St Leo]

were there "Americans deserved it" threads on sept 11? They didn't pop up until a week after the event I believe...

Did we know who was responsible for 9/11? No. Do we know who is responsible for this. Yes.

[Sonic]

Lord Merciles, it could be that there simply won't be any history books at a time...

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Sonic
Lord Merciles, it could be that there simply won't be any history books at a time...

Possible.