Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
That's true but did you know the SS were horrified by the cruelty of Rumanian progroms against the Jews? The Germans preferred a nice clean shooting or gassing.

If this isn't one of your trolls (you are famous for trolls), please tell me more about that.
AFAIK romanians legionares ("Iron Guard" or "Legion of archangel Mihail") killed about 2,000 jews during their rebelion in 20-22 ian 1941. Also jews in Bessarabia were very badly treated after Barbarossa because they helped soviets in 1940 (or at least those were the accusations)

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Serb
So, the Stalin ordered to deportate nationalities who backstabed SU and joined nazi in their war vs. SU.

Those nationalities didn't "backstabed" Soviet Union, they grab the chance to fight against the occupant (Red) army.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Serb
And just said thats a bit unfair that deportations in SU during WW2 consider as the "one of the greatest crimes against humanity in the 20th century" while the same "ethnic cleansing" in USA and GB consider as Ok.

Those deported in USA and GB lived in bad condition but only few died because of those conditon and they could go back right after war and later they received compensation. In SU the deportated were transported in awful condition and send to regions with very harsh condition from where they could return only after tens of years.

[Seeker]

Russia is history's problem child.

[Mihai]

Originally posted by Serb
Of course, but actually I don’t think Soviet gang was created only via military force, iirc there were government overthrows lead by local communists in those countries, and right after the war communists were very popular as most uncompromising resistance fighters during occupation.

That was true for Yugoslavia and Albania. Romanian communists were very few, Hungary fought untill the total occupation of the country. The Poland resistence was nationalistic, not communist. In Baltic countries I guess that there were more volunteers in Waffen SS than in communist resistence.

[Serb]

Originally posted by notyoueither
No Serb. Most victims were Ukrainian, Georgian, Byelorussian, Siberian, and on and on. By far. Remember them?

Oh... I see now, you are real expert about this subject.
Siberians? Very funny, a words of real expert. There is no such nationality as Siberians and never was. Siberians it’s the same Russians who live in Siberia.

I guess these four names it's a full list of nationalities of SU known to you.
Do yourself a favor and make a basic research about this. Russians were/are absolute majority of population of SU/RF. Russians were the absolute majority of people killed by Stalin during repressions. And every one who don't know it, know nothing about Stalin atrocities.

I think I understand Russians far more than you wish. Some of you want to hold on to some vestige of past glories. You want to hold on so much that you will excuse anything, you will defend almost anything. I also understand that not all Russians are Stalinists, and not all Russians are, or were Communists.

You described how you WANT to see us. You want to see us as losers who are whining about their defeat. Fine, portray us as you wish, it will change nothing.
As I said you will never understand us.

[Serb]

No, I really don't think they hate ALL of them.

Go to Baltic States and say something on Russian language or said that you are Russian. Then try to repeat the same about hatred towards Russians, here on Apolyton, if you will be able of course, because those friendly people could break your fingers.

Just because a lituanian apolytener doesn't love russians, you think that they teach that in school?

Again go in Baltic states and you’ll see that he is typical representative of their culture.

You mean the Russian (and their descendants) that were bring in big numbers against the local population wish? I guess that most of the lituanians consider that those russian came with Red Army and should go back with it.

I mean Russians who were born there, whose ancestors were born there and who consider those countries as their Motherland, because they never had any other Motherland.
Do you have any idea how many peoples of different nationalities live in Russia? IIRC, here lives people of 192 different nationalities. If for example major of Moscow will declare someday that Russia is for Russians only, and will start to persecute national minorities and push them away from city governed by him, you will call him a nazi who commit crimes against humanity. The governments of Baltic during last years doing exactly the same and you don’t say a single word. Hypocritical bastards.
And by the way to your knowledge, Russians start to settle near Baltic see not in 1945, but MUCH earlier, even earlier then XVIII century when those lands were attached to Russian Empire after defeat of Sweden. Some of their modern territory iirc belonged to ancient Russian city of Novgorod when it was an independent trade republic.

As I said in my previous post, graves should be left alone, but they have the right to put/get down the monuments as they wish.

The monuments dedicated to people who fought vs. nazism?

You say "they fought vs. nazi", they say "they fought for the occupant soviets"

Could you imagine a situation when modern Germans are saying-“...we are saying that they weren't nazi, they just fought vs. the occupant soviets”?

I can’t imagine such situation.

Why for you it’s “Ok” to say- “our local nazi were heroes, they were trying to defend our country from Soviets”?

You mean dedicated to those who fought for the independence of the country?

I mean “people” who burned entire towns with inhabitants locked in houses, burned them alive, everyone of them including women, children and elders. I mean “people” who love to torture their victims just for fun. I mean “people” who support idea of their supremacy over other races. I mean nazi beasts. I mean beasts that fought for idea of extermination of “inferior” races, not for independence, as you describe it. The beasts those were wearing nazi uniform.
Could anyone tell me is there a single monument in Germany, which represent a human wearing nazi uniform and holding a gun, with slogan near- “Dedicated to memory of heroes who fought for independence of our country from Soviet occupants”?
I guess no one.
Why? WHY? WHY such monument dedicated to nazi could stand in the middle of Talin, a European capital?
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS, IF NOT A REHABILITATION OF NAZISM?

Normaly I would be upset be the "****" reply from Serb, but I expected an emotional burst. Russians solders didn't die by milions to eliberate East Europe, but to defeat those who attacked them (see Great Patriotic War).

Idiotic statement. So, you liberated yourselves?

That doesn't mean that we should be thankful to those who take our land (Bessarabia),...

Later boy, a bit later.

...delayed recognision of Romania's change of side at August 23rd 1944 (while they take without fight thousand of prisoners and send them to Siberia even if the rest of the Romanian army fought side by side with Red Army), impose heavy retribution (300 milions $), and impose the communist regim (local - illegal - communist party numbered only 2,000 men).

And you are whining about this? You should have prayed to all gods that Soviets didn’t acted like Romanian nazi forces in Russia. Do you have any idea how your nazi acted in Soviet Union? Do you have any idea how many people they killed and tortured to death? Do you have any idea how many millions of people from Soviet occupied territories they moved away from their homes to works in death camps? Do you have any idea who many cities, towns and villages they destroyed? Do you have any idea what material harm they done to Soviets? In compare with this harm these 300 mln$ is drop in the ocean.
I guess you don’t have any idea about this. It’s your luck, your great luck that Soviet soldier didn’t acted in Romania how your soldiers acted in Soviet Union. Huge numbers of Soviet soldiers have wives, children or parents killed by nazi army, and you were the part of this army. So, thank all goods that Soviets didn’t revenge for their losses.

I didn't said that nazis were nice guys, but Soviet Russians were brutal occupants. If Russia is the enemy, those who fought against it, are considered heroes (regardless of their ideology).

You seems to do not ****ing understand one simple thing.
IT CAN’T BE REGARDLESS OF IDEOLOGY.
To your knowledge, after the war there was Nuremberg’s tribunal. Not only it was the tribunal over nazi war criminals. IT WAS TRIBUNAL OVER NAZISM AS IDEOLOGY. Not only war criminals were found guilty in crimes over humanity. Nazism as ideology was found guilty in crimes against humanity. It was found an INHUMAN ideology.
What are you saying and what governments of Baltic States do is attempt to rehabilitate nazism.

Bessarabia was part of Moldavia untill 1812 and the majority of the population was romanian.

Using your logic: Bessarabia was part of Russia until 1918, until you took it by force. Soviets done the same in 1939- return it via force.

And don't put 'k' in my name, please.

Ok, I guess I maid a grammar error. I suggest it’s your real name, because it sounds very similar to Russian Mikhail (Mike).

[Serb]

Stalin did not save russia form the Nazis, russians(and ukranians and all the others) did.

And who do you think all those people were if not 'soldiers of communist government'?
Sure first of all they were patriots, but they were lead by communists. I guess you just don't know about role communist party played.

Stalin did not save russia form the Nazis, russians(and ukranians and all the others) did. A competent leader would ahve done it quicker and wouldn't have had most of its army destroyed in the 1st few months.

Oh sure, modern Englishman could know about this more then for example men who participated in this war (my grandfather) and who said me once that we would never won this war without Stalin.

IIRC it was the Russian historian Karamzin who said this (I doubt I could translate it proplerly): “The history don’t know “IF” ”
You may create your theories about “what if…” such as “what if there was no revolution in Russia and it was monarchy or democracy when nazi invaded” It change nothing, historians don’t operate with those “IF” theories, they operate with historical facts. One of those facts is that communist government ruled Russia in its darkest hour. The rest is “IF” theories which could be left to sci-fi writers, because for historians those theories are useless.

[Serb]

It's not news that eyes see and ears hear what the mind tells them to see and hear, and the mind can be manipulated to think what it is told. Man can look at an ugly black table and sigh: "Oh I like that white chair, it's SO beautiful!" if someone with authority tells him/her to see a beautiful white chair.

What are you smoking? You are sounds like hippy.

Do all the Russian people, even the young, really, really believe that the Soviet supremacy was loved by the neighbouring countries?

Of course not.

All Russian people, even the young, really, really believe that nazism was plague of XX century and that nothing could compares with nazism in scale of evilness.

The Soviet system was efficient in one aspect in addition to creating environmental catastrophes by reckless pollution: they succeeded in manipulating the whole nation. It frightens me to think about it. A nation-wide hypnosis.

Obviously you are ‘flower child’ or member of “Green peace”


p.s.I hope it doesn’t count as personal insult, I was trying to joking. Don’t hurt me uncle Ming... please….

[DinoDoc]

Serb: In case you don't realize this, forcible occupation has a general tendency to piss off the occupied people. This tendency goes up even further when the occupation is as oppressive as the Soviet one was. Is it any wonder the Baltic states don't like Russia?

[Serb]

Those deported in USA and GB lived in bad condition but only few died because of those conditon and they could go back right after war and later they received compensation. In SU the deportated were transported in awful condition and send to regions with very harsh condition from where they could return only after tens of years.

Say in to Japanese-Americans who went through American camps and lived like criminals, separated by barbed wire. IIRC deported in SU lived in houses, and weren’t separated from other society by barbed wire.
As for harsh conditions, I lived here in the terrible place with harsh conditions known as Siberia, and my ancestors lived here and I’m not dead yet. And I prefer to live here then in the middle of Nevada (IIRC) desert where Japanese-Americans were put.

[Serb]

Those nationalities didn't "backstabed" Soviet Union, they grab the chance to fight against the occupant (Red) army.

And what is the definition of backstabbing in your understanding?

As for me everyone who joined invader’s forces in war vs. it’s own country is traitor and backstabber.

[Serb]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Seeker
Ooops...triple post.

[Serb]

Ooops…triple post.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Seeker
Russia is history's problem child.

You are your parents problem child
*runs away*