Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Actually, the opposite is true. The USSR spent more money on Eastern Europe than it ever saw returned, and that's including having packed up East Germany's industry and moved it to the USSR as war reparations.

I´not sure if this is right, but even when it is, I think not everything can be measured in money given or taken...

[Sonic]

Yes, chegitz, but socialism, totalytarism, Russian supremacism still pretty much ruined it more than any money given. Most of capitalistic countries also suffered in WW2 now are very rich.

As for USA< you are maybe true but Britain didn't wanted to handle EE to Soviets. They instead tried to get as much as possible and they agreed on some pact later with SU which saved Greece and Austria I believe from Soviet influence. They also tried to save Poland, but they weren't able to do so.

[Sonic]

Bebro, it wasn't actually money, it was mostly building factories, power plants, TV towers, and other infrastructure like highways. However, most of that industry is very ineffcient and if we weren't annexed we now would have even more.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Furthermore, the US was just as complicit in handing over Eastern Europe to the USSR. Far from the myth of a weak Roosevelt, the US and UK felt that being saddled with Eastern Europe would slow Soviet recovery from the Nazi invasion. Instead of merely taking care of themselves, the USSR would also have to take care of Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe was a posion pill.

Well I´m not going to defend anything here, but it seems to me a total illusion to think that the USSR under Stalin would have given up eastern europe when it had those territory already under control. The end of WWII cemented the partition of europe into two military alliances for a long time. So while the USSR was lost in gaining influence in western europe without another war, I doubt the US or Britain could do something for eastern europe without risking a war too...

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Sonic
Bebro, it wasn't actually money, it was mostly building factories, power plants, TV towers, and other infrastructure like highways. However, most of that industry is very ineffcient and if we weren't annexed we now would have even more.

Well, I may be wrong, but I had the impression that Sprayber´s post wasn´t only about money or any other material things, but also about immaterial things like independence, sovereignty etc...

[Stefu]

And remember, all those land grabs in 1939-40 were about defneding against a Nazi invasions.

Please tell me you are being sarcastic.

[Frankychan]

sorry guys if you all misunderstood me. I meant my post to be sarcastic.

Sprayber did touch up on ONE of the benefits I think EE benefited from soviet control....the fact that ethnic tension was "buried" for a time.

One of my co-workers is from the PRC and she still thinks Taiwan belongs to mainland China. I don't know what to think cause China was a democracy BEFORE communist rule.

[tinyp3nis]

I don't know why you think he shouldn't be banned cause he obviously has certain troubles and can't discuss or even LEARN things before starting discussing and talks absolute non-sense using word "f*ck" as an arguement.

Well then I don't get to see the show

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by BeBro


Well, I may be wrong, but I had the impression that Sprayber´s post wasn´t only about money or any other material things, but also about immaterial things like independence, sovereignty etc...

Your impression was correct BeBro. I guess the communist view of things like personal freedom far below developement of infrastructure. Or at lest the ones that end up taking actual power.

[Sonic]

Sprayber, there wasn't any personal freedom in USSR. Everyone who didn't agreed with regime were exiled, killed or sent to mental hospitals. Probably in Iraq there is more freedom than there were in Lithuania under Soviet rule.

[David Floyd]

David, I don’t blame you for your silliness, it’s American brainwashing machine, which made you so naive, so arrogant and so silly. You are the product of this system a product of American arrogance. Only a product of this system could believe that murder of millions of Soviet people in case of German victory over SU would be a right thing.

Yes, people dying would have been bad, but the destruction of the Soviet state would have been good.

Only a product of this system could believe that army of his country, an army, which never saw a battles of East front scale, could win vs. the one of the most powerful and most victorious armies humanity ever saw. Just answer one single question- are you sure that Americans were ready to sacrifice… say TEN millions of AMERICAN LIVES (let’s took less then half of Russian casualties) for liberation of Europe from nazism? As for me if your casualties would grow more then 300 000 soldiers you have lost, then your population just elect a new president who promised to stop the war.

Totally unnecessary. The US would have had total air supremacy over the continent of Europe, and strategic bombers could have flattened every single German industrial and population center, especially once the B-29s came in. Entire troop concentrations could have been carpet bombed. And that's BEFORE the atomic bomb.

One more thing Floyd. If you were so great damn world policeman, so great protector of human rights and defender of democracy, then why you waited until HITLER DECLARED WAR ON YOU? Why you done nothing to stop him until he attacked you? Perhaps you just don’t have balls, because you are country of traders who wanted to make profit on incoming war, not a country of warriors as you describe it.

We stayed out of WW2 - quite rightly - because it did not involve us. Only problem was, FDR really wanted to get in the war, and did everything possible to aid the Allies, knowing this would provoke Hitler and the Japanese. In the end, it unfortunately worked, and quite unfortunately over 400,000 Americans died from all causes during the war.

I would have far preferred the US stay out, altogether, but once we were in the war, we should have done our damndest to make sure the Soviet Union did not gobble up more territory and more people and more resources.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Sonic
Sprayber, there wasn't any personal freedom in USSR. Everyone who didn't agreed with regime were exiled, killed or sent to mental hospitals. Probably in Iraq there is more freedom than there were in Lithuania under Soviet rule.

Tell serb that not me.

[Bosh]

The USSR spent more money on Eastern Europe than it ever saw returned, and that's including having packed up East Germany's industry and moved it to the USSR as war reparations.

Yep. Also under the communist bloc market system the russians gave more (oil etc.) thant hey got according to market values.

[Sonic]

Sprayber, why to say him that - we all know what his answer will be anyway . It is better to have a discution with someone who is at least able to say true facts and arguements, not some made up ones full of prejustice...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sonic
Yes, chegitz, but socialism, totalytarism, Russian supremacism still pretty much ruined it more than any money given. Most of capitalistic countries also suffered in WW2 now are very rich.

Hurm.

Have you counted countries in North Africa, the Balkins, Asia-Pacific?

Most of these countries don't seem to be very rich.