Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sonic
Yes, before WW2 those four Baltic countries (Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia and Finland) if compared by GNP stood like this:
1.Latvia
2.Lithuania
3.Estonia
4.Finland

Look to the countries now to see the "benefits" of Soviet occupation.

That's not what the OP said - it specificially said 'Russian (should be Soviet really) "liberation"'. So the question is really "Would you prefer Nazi occupation?"

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
So the question is really "Would you prefer Nazi occupation?"

Isn't this whole thread a bit like asking if you'd rather be shot in the foot or hand?

[Sprayber]

Serb: You are pinning everything on what the Soviets did in WWII and are ignoring what happened since then. Didn't the Ukrainians welcome the Germans at first as liberators? That is until they began to be rounded up and sent off. I can only imagine that any sense of gratefullness to the Soviet Union was lost the second the decision was made that their fates would be determined in Moscow. Can you attempt to understand the disappointment that the poeple in EE felt when they learned that they traded Berlin for Moscow? For a lot of Eastern European people living today, it is Moscow that represents oppression and fear, not Berlin. This would be especially true for those living in the Baltic countries where their independence was stripped.

Look at Vietnam. Do you think that people there look at the support that the US gave to them during the fight against the Japanese? Hell no. They only see what happend when the US intervend in their affairs during the 60s and 70s. For good or bad the image of America is defined by them according to what happened then. So is the image of the Soviet Union defined by how they kept their "allies" in line after they were "liberated"

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I'm not from Eastern Europe but my observation is that the Soviet Union took more than it ever gave to the Eastern European countries. I'm not saying that the United States is perfect, but the Soviet Union never gave those countries a choice as to if they wanted to be apart of their so called alliance. The Poles, Chezchs, and Hungarians found that out first hand. What the Soviets ran was more like a protection racket then an alliance. That's all the opinion of an American looking across the sea. So take it as such.

Oh… and who saying this? An American, a citizen of country famous for its interventions. If some of West Europeans countries decided to switch their government to communistic I can guaranty we could saw a Chili type junta installed by USA instead democratically elected but “Red� government.

Actualy Paiktis could enlighten you how communists were removed from Greece for example.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Serb



Oh… and who saying this? An American, a citizen of country famous for its interventions. If some of West Europeans countries decided to switch their government to communistic I can guaranty we could saw a Chili type junta installed by USA instead democratically elected but “Red� government.

Actualy Paiktis could enlighten you how communists were removed from Greece for example.

Read my second post. And you wonder why no on takes you seriously

[Serb]

Originally posted by David Floyd
First of all, I agree with Sonic. I would certainly prefer to see the Germans destroy the Soviet Union, before being destroyed themselves by the US.

Secondly, serb, will you admit that it would have been objectively better if the US and Britain gave the SU the finger, and drove as fast and as far east as they could to occupy territory before the SU?

David, I don’t blame you for your silliness, it’s American brainwashing machine, which made you so naive, so arrogant and so silly. You are the product of this system a product of American arrogance. Only a product of this system could believe that murder of millions of Soviet people in case of German victory over SU would be a right thing. Only a product of this system could believe that army of his country, an army, which never saw a battles of East front scale, could win vs. the one of the most powerful and most victorious armies humanity ever saw. Just answer one single question- are you sure that Americans were ready to sacrifice… say TEN millions of AMERICAN LIVES (let’s took less then half of Russian casualties) for liberation of Europe from nazism? As for me if your casualties would grow more then 300 000 soldiers you have lost, then your population just elect a new president who promised to stop the war.
One more thing Floyd. If you were so great damn world policeman, so great protector of human rights and defender of democracy, then why you waited until HITLER DECLARED WAR ON YOU? Why you done nothing to stop him until he attacked you? Perhaps you just don’t have balls, because you are country of traders who wanted to make profit on incoming war, not a country of warriors as you describe it.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sprayber
Serb: You are pinning everything on what the Soviets did in WWII and are ignoring what happened since then. Didn't the Ukrainians welcome the Germans at first as liberators? That is until they began to be rounded up and sent off. I can only imagine that any sense of gratefullness to the Soviet Union was lost the second the decision was made that their fates would be determined in Moscow. Can you attempt to understand the disappointment that the poeple in EE felt when they learned that they traded Berlin for Moscow? For a lot of Eastern European people living today, it is Moscow that represents oppression and fear, not Berlin. This would be especially true for those living in the Baltic countries where their independence was stripped.

Look at Vietnam. Do you think that people there look at the support that the US gave to them during the fight against the Japanese? Hell no. They only see what happend when the US intervend in their affairs during the 60s and 70s. For good or bad the image of America is defined by them according to what happened then. So is the image of the Soviet Union defined by how they kept their "allies" in line after they were "liberated"

Why? WHY? WHY no one could understand why this thread was started?
I’m perfectly realize that they consider Soviets as occupants, but this is not the topic of this thread.

The topic of this thread is:
1) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to hate ALL MODERN Russians for what communists done?

2) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to teach their children in modern schools that all modern Russians are bandits, addicts and just "human crap"?

3) Is it OK for government of Baltic States absolutely legally treat Russians living there as second grade people without civil rights?

4) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to raze graves of Soviet soldiers and destroy monuments dedicated to people who fought vs. nazism?

5) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to treat their Red army veterans who fought vs. nazism as crap, and at the same treat their nazi as heroes?

6) Is it OK for people of Baltic States to create monuments dedicated to their nazi?

Could anyone answer those questions for me?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Serb
Why? WHY? WHY no one could understand why this thread was started?
I’m perfectly realize that they consider Soviets as occupants, but this is not the topic of this thread.

The topic of the thread is whether or not the people of Eastern Europe should be thankful for Soviet Occupation. You seem to be of the opinion that the3y should be.

[Blisterz]

Originally posted by Serb


David, I don’t blame you for your silliness, it’s American brainwashing machine, which made you so naive, so arrogant and so silly. You are the product of this system a product of American arrogance. Only a product of this system could believe that murder of millions of Soviet people in case of German victory over SU would be a right thing. Only a product of this system could believe that army of his country, an army, which never saw a battles of East front scale, could win vs. the one of the most powerful and most victorious armies humanity ever saw. Just answer one single question- are you sure that Americans were ready to sacrifice… say TEN millions of AMERICAN LIVES (let’s took less then half of Russian casualties) for liberation of Europe from nazism? As for me if your casualties would grow more then 300 000 soldiers you have lost, then your population just elect a new president who promised to stop the war.
One more thing Floyd. If you were so great damn world policeman, so great protector of human rights and defender of democracy, then why you waited until HITLER DECLARED WAR ON YOU? Why you done nothing to stop him until he attacked you? Perhaps you just don’t have balls, because you are country of traders who wanted to make profit on incoming war, not a country of warriors as you describe it.

Wow, I really don't care where I live, as long as you don't live near me.

[Ramo]

To be fair, the Soviets helped to subsidize various parts of its empire (except East Germany, where they shipped all the industry to Russia after the war ended), even if the reasons for doing so were far from being altruistic. I suppose Soviet occupation could've been quite a bit worse... And certainly it's preferable to Nazi occupation.

Of course, East Europeans certainly shouldn't feel thankful for the actions of the Soviet Union following World War II.

[Serb]

I could say the same about David. Perhaps I shouldn't continue our struggle about WW2 in this thread, but David started it first.
Anyhow I'm going to

[Sonic]

Lithuanians did NEVER burned children (some of course did, but those were criminals). Many people in fact helped Jews by offering them home and shelter when nazi army pursuited them. These people risked their own lifes to help Jews. I think they did a right thing, I don't think Jews should be killed, I also don't support Hitler thus I am NOT nazi more than you are Stalinist. Lithuanians didn't ever killed blacks or Asians or whatever you told.

As for graves of Soviet people you are very wrong. In most places all graves are remaining, even with these Soviet symbols. Nothing was destroyed from them. For example, in the main central park of Palanga, not even graveyard, there is grave/monument for Soviet troops and it wasn't destroyed.

No, WE ARE NOT teached in schools that Russians are bandits, we see that ourselves. I DON'T say all Russians are bullies, I talked about ones who live in Lithuania. Unlike for example Polish minority, these Russians never assimilated into culture and they still thinks Russia is superior. And when I watch criminal news, about 50% of criminals are Russians, wjhile only 8% of people are Russians.

We treat our nazi as heroes? We currently have most of them in jail or courts! Learn something before saying that Serb. And our veterans has their clubs and bigger social guarantees, I certainly know that as I know one veteran.

We create nazi monuments? You are maybe stupid or what? Please name at least one such a monument

Russians doesn't change, Now they does the same in Chechnya.

Russians are woithout civil rights? LEARN HISTORY! In Lithuania, they have all rights and citizenship. Don't mix Latvia and Lithuania please.

IN MY OPINION EVERYONE IS HUMAN, It is not so in your opinion however, you think Russians are superior and can do what they wants and all others are only second grade humans, maybe you are undercover Zhironovski?

Sorry for harsh words people, but I am currently very angry. That guy calls me **** for nothing, I don't know why you think he shouldn't be banned cause he obviously has certain troubles and can't discuss or even LEARN things before starting discussing and talks absolute non-sense using word "f*ck" as an arguement.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Should East Europe countries be thankful to Soviet Union?

I wouldn't be, even if they did save them from the Nazis.

And remember, all those land grabs in 1939-40 were about defneding against a Nazi invasions.

Still, I'd hate the Russians too. It's genetic.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Sprayber
I'm not from Eastern Europe but my observation is that the Soviet Union took more than it ever gave to the Eastern European countries. I'm not saying that the United States is perfect, but the Soviet Union never gave those countries a choice as to if they wanted to be apart of their so called alliance.

Actually, the opposite is true. The USSR spent more money on Eastern Europe than it ever saw returned, and that's including having packed up East Germany's industry and moved it to the USSR as war reparations.

Furthermore, the US was just as complicit in handing over Eastern Europe to the USSR. Far from the myth of a weak Roosevelt, the US and UK felt that being saddled with Eastern Europe would slow Soviet recovery from the Nazi invasion. Instead of merely taking care of themselves, the USSR would also have to take care of Eastern Europe. Eastern Europe was a posion pill.

[Sonic]

Well, as I am now a bit calmer...

Yes in 1939 SU annexed Lithuania and not defending from nazis but instead cooperating with them. They defended only when nazis attacked. And they defended SU, not Lithuania.

Also, as Serb said that under Hitler many Lithuanians would be forced to work in SS, etc. About the same amount in fact was forced to work for analogical Soviet structures. You don't have any arguement shy Soviet Union is better than third reich (because it isn't better but worse, much worse). In Germany there was at least capitalsim, thus economy wouldn't be destroyed. And every clever/rich/powerful Lithuanian wouldn't be killed/exiled/sent to mental hospitals. That means much less Lithuanians would be killed. And yet again, no more Lithuanians would be forced to work in Hitleristic structures when were forced to work in Soviet structures.