IDF will occupy Gaza and uproot Hamas

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ramo


Stopping Palestinian oppression would help end terror. People generally don't decide they want to kill themselves and lots of other people for no reason.

But the Palestinians have already decided, or some of them at least, to kill themselves so that Israeli civilians can die with them.
Pulling down all restrictions won't stop that. On the other hand, it'll only let in a flood of suicide bombers.

Well, that is how a democracy works...

In affluent countries. In a country filled with desperate, angry people, this is not exactly how a democracy would work.

I'm not sure where I suggested that...

Let's say that I was exaggerating a bit.

I'd prefer it to take down all barriers to citizenship....

But there are Israeli Arab citizens. No one says that a non-Jew can't be an Israeli.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ramo


What do you consider terror?

For me, it's willful killing of civilians, with the purpose of killing specifically civilians.

Waiting to see Siro's response...

[Ramo]

Ah, missed this:

Tell us what should be done, and how that would help.

When people are poor and oppressed, they tend to become desperate. This desperation leads the Palestinians to committing terracts. Removing their oppression, means undermining the root of this terror.

Hell, even if it didn't do this, it's the humane and jsut thing to do.

[Ramo]

But the Palestinians have already decided, or some of them at least, to kill themselves so that Israeli civilians can die with them.
Pulling down all restrictions won't stop that.

Even if so many of them are already "decided" on the issue, ending oppression would lead to the end of people become terrorists.

On the other hand, it'll only let in a flood of suicide bombers.

And that's the job of the police to prevent.

For me, it's willful killing of civilians, with the purpose of killing specifically civilians.

Waiting to see Siro's response...

Killing only? So if a suicide bomber just injured someone, it wasn't terror?

[Ramo]

Damn, keep posting prematurely:

But there are Israeli Arab citizens. No one says that a non-Jew can't be an Israeli.

But a non-Jew has a more difficult time becoming an Israeli. Look at the people who fled from there 50 years ago, for instance. Many of them still are not Israeli citizens.

In affluent countries. In a country filled with desperate, angry people, this is not exactly how a democracy would work.

I see. So we should have the Israeli government stay in power in Palestine, and help to foster this desperation and anger?

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ramo


Even if so many of them are already "decided" on the issue, ending oppression would lead to the end of people become terrorists.

And how long would it take to change the mindsets of Palestinians? 10 years? 50 years?
And how many Israelis must die before then?

And that's the job of the police to prevent.

So the police is in charge of counter-terrorism now?
Whoa... a bit of an uneven match, isn't it?

Killing only? So if a suicide bomber just injured someone, it wasn't terror?

With intent to kill or maim.

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ramo
Damn, keep posting prematurely:



But a non-Jew has a more difficult time becoming an Israeli. Look at the people who fled from there 50 years ago, for instance. Many of them still are not Israeli citizens.

Well in that case I agree with you.

[CyberGnu]

Ranskaldan, I posted what I considered both one 'just' and one 'practical' solution about a month ago... But in short, ending oppression would do it...

[CyberGnu]

Siro, Drake, well, if you can't support your own opinions, maybe you should just be quiet?

[ranskaldan]

You got a link?

[Ramo]

And how long would it take to change the mindsets of Palestinians? 10 years? 50 years?

I don't know. Probably not 50 years. Look at how fast terror declined from the IRA when the British gov't decided to treat the Irish decently, for instance.

So the police is in charge of counter-terrorism now?
Whoa... a bit of an uneven match, isn't it?

Uneven match? What do you mean?

With intent to kill or maim.

Ok, so if I shot you, but didn't kill you, and said "vote for someguy or I'll finish you off," that isn't terror?

[ranskaldan]

Originally posted by Ramo


I don't know. Probably not 50 years. Look at how fast terror declined from the IRA when the British gov't decided to treat the Irish decently, for instance.

The Israelis, however, take a much greater risk if they pull down all restrictions and hope that the Palestinians would appreciate it.

Uneven match? What do you mean?

The police isn't exactly the right department to turn to when combatting international terrorism.

Ok, so if I shot you, but didn't kill you, and said "vote for someguy or I'll finish you off," that isn't terror?

That's with intent to kill, obviously.

[CyberGnu]

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61803&perpage=20&pagenumber=4

For the 'just' solution. The practial solution is older, from a discussion I had with Ned. But in essense, anything between the 'fair' solution and the Oslo accords.

It is basically a question of propaganda and perception. The pro-Israelis wants the world to believe that the two extreme position are 'all of palestine to Israel' on one side, and 'the Oslo accords' on the other, and a negotiated deal would be in the middle. This is naturally ludicrous.

The mor realistic position is what I posted as one extreme, the current status quo as the other, and a negotiated deal in the middle.

Essentially, what Ramo is saying

[Ramo]

The Israelis, however, take a much greater risk if they pull down all restrictions and hope that the Palestinians would appreciate it.

The reduction of Israeli incursions, as the last few moths have demonstrated, have lead to a reduced frequency of Palestinian terracts. It's only logical that an even greater reduction of oppression would correspond to a comprable reduction in terracts.

The police isn't exactly the right department to turn to when combatting international terrorism.

Why not? There only needs to be a police organization on the national level comparable to the FBI.

That's with intent to kill, obviously.

I didn't intend to kill you. I only intended to get you to do what I want.

[Sirotnikov]

Absolutely. But sharing is not equivalent to taking and redistributing unfairly.

Agreed.

Do you not think closures and curfews are motivating people to become suicide bombers?

I do.
But their most important effect is making it harder for suicide bombers from entering Israel.

I will risk the possibility of creating another suicide bomber, to stop someone who I know is on his way to blow me up.

Plus, what makes for 95% of the motivation for sucide bombers is the education and incitement.

Suicide bombing is given the highest place in the palestinian society, both religion wise, and political-wise. This is the case in every group that ever used suicide bombings.

There are much more opressed groups than there are groups who use suicide bombing - that is because only some give the martyrs such divine status.

Um... not sure what you mean here. Are you suggesting impoverishing the Palestinian people so they can't send money to terrorist organizations?

No, I'm suggesting not giving them any money until we can see where it goes. and the EU seems to agree with me.

So you don't think Israel's restrictive immigration policy is contrbuting to terror?

nope.

US immigration policy is also restrictive. I'm poor. I will probably not get in. Does it mean i should somehow feel justified to use terror?

Well, they do have an independent state in which they can freely prosper.

The Palestinains technically have Jordan which is 78% of Historical Palestine, and has a 85% Palestinian majority.

But let us leave that alone.

Once they get an independant state in the west bank and Gaza - they will have a place in which they can prosper as much as they want - so no reason to go back to Israel.

Do most Palestinian Israelis want to push Jews out of the country?

A recent survey made by a palestinian body, showed that a large part of palestinians (around 40-50% i think) saw the intifada as a means to free "the entire land of palestine".

On the other hand, look at what parts of Likkud (sp?) have been proposing regarding what to do with Palestinians.

Do tell me what you think have they been proposing?

Stopping Palestinian oppression would help end terror. People generally don't decide they want to kill themselves and lots of other people for no reason.

Obviously everything has a reason. But that doesn't mean that every reason can be fulfilled.

The whole point of not appeasing terror, is that terror shouldn't be allowed as a legitimate way of pressure, to achieve goals.

If any goal is achieved via terror, and terror is rewarded, it gives a positive reinforcement to use terror for other goals.

The Israeli point of view is that the terror is being used against it to wear it down, and to get political achievements without negociations (ie, pressure the Israelis into giving more).

Thus the terms of the agreement will be
a) Israel agrees to withdraw
b) Pals agree to stop killing Israelis.

Such an agreement sets a bad precedent.

Well, that is how a democracy works...

Interesting.

I was sure there are checkpoints on the US borders. I was also thinking that immigration laws exist and are observed.

Perhaps I'm wrong, or is the US mexico border un-democratic and opressive??

What do you consider terror?

The use of illegitimate means (intentionall harming non-combatant innocent civilians) with the intention of creating fear and thus bullying the other side into awarding you an achievement for a promise to stop the violence.

But I agree for it to be used to all illegitimate means.

Israel has so far not used illegitimate means, even if it did on occassion hurt non-combatant civilians.

But a non-Jew has a more difficult time becoming an Israeli. Look at the people who fled from there 50 years ago, for instance. Many of them still are not Israeli citizens.

Those who fled either chose to fled, or were kicked out, usually due to ties with enemy arab armies, or organized resistance.

They either fled or were evicted because they refused to accept the legitimacy of the new country.

There is no basis for assuming they are willing to comeback and peacefully live in Israel, accepting it. Many cases demonstrate that some wish to comeback with the hidden agenda of eventually destrying Israel, whether by political means, or armed struggle.

Several palestinians who were allowed to return and were given Israeli citizenship, abused it, to aid suicide bombers. Thus, the process was stopped this year.

Siro, Drake, well, if you can't support your own opinions, maybe you should just be quiet?

Says the person who has never supported his opinion by anything other than "I've never heard of that case..." "your sources all lie" or some logical fallacies.

I don't know. Probably not 50 years. Look at how fast terror declined from the IRA when the British gov't decided to treat the Irish decently, for instance.

That terror is a bit different.

I've so far haven't heard of martyrdom being as sacred in the Irish culture.

Furthermore, there is general acceptance of the Irish, that the brittish are in Ireland to stay.

Not so with the Palestinians, and I bring the survey I quoted above as evidence. That and the fact that all palestinian maps depict Israel as a whole palestine, and most non-official Palestinian sources (ie not propoganda) state that they want to liberate "all" of palestine.