IDF will occupy Gaza and uproot Hamas

[CyberGnu]

If those civilians insist on living on occupied land, or supporting the occupying army? Sure.

Where is that swedish oppression, again? It is a strawman, and you know it. Civilization evolved, and we do not longer tolerate (or at least should not tolerate) territorial gains by conquest.

Only Israel is supported by western society, which is why it is such a blight on the moral fiber of the western world.

[Guardian]

I see...

So, basically, you are everything you accuse the Israelis of being, and you think it's perfectly okay, because "They are the occupants!"



Where is the Swedish oppression? Well, there have been more than a few cases of that. Just not very recently.

It could be worth noting, though, that we never bombed you to make it stop.

[CyberGnu]

As I asked Siro, care to show that logical deduction?

Truman ordered two japanese cities obliterated to end the second world war. In your eyes, I guess that made him a Nazi.

Oppression should be fought tooth and nail. Oppression should never be allowed to prosper. Might DOES NOT give right.

Of course, we all know that those tenets were all part of nazi doctrine, right? Oh, wait, they weren't. Huh, I guess that puts a few sticks in the wheels for you... I guess you'd better find something else to revile me with. How about pedophilia? Oh, oh, I know! Arson! Yes! The Gnu thinks oppression is wrong, he must therefore be an arsonist!!!

Bah.



Bombs against swedish oppression? Well, bombs didn't exist back then. But the swedish occupation of Scania was fought quite viciously by the Snapphanes, including the routine killing of tax collectors and sheriffs, yet no one would claim them to be terrorists. Even the 'victims' of their attacks, the Swedes, understands that they fought for their freedom.

Maybe you should read some history... Might make you understand the present.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Saddam is problably the worst example of one in the world today.

I'd say Sharon is worse than Saddam.

You would say that, and it makes as much sense as a lot of things you say. Not much.

Saddam is responsible for the deaths of 1 million muslims. How many has Sharon killed again?

[Jaakko]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


You believe Sharon relaxes by watching tapes of torture sessions, Imran?

Got a cite for that? That's so outlandish it sounds like some inept propagandist's invention. Then again, many do seem to be ready to believe anything of the evil du jour, whatever it is for them.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by CyberGnu

As I asked Siro, care to show that logical deduction?

Simple:
You claim that certain things are just plain wrong and can never be justified. At the same time, you claim that those same things are not morally wrong and that they can be justified if they're done by the "right" people...

Sorry, but I'm not the one who needs to explain my logic here.

Truman ordered two japanese cities obliterated to end the second world war. In your eyes, I guess that made him a Nazi.

Not a nazi, but definitely a mass murderer, yes.

Bombs against swedish oppression? Well, bombs didn't exist back then. But the swedish occupation of Scania was fought quite viciously by the Snapphanes, including the routine killing of tax collectors and sheriffs, yet no one would claim them to be terrorists. Even the 'victims' of their attacks, the Swedes, understands that they fought for their freedom.

Well, fighting against those who actively oppress you is one thing.
Deliberately slaughtering random groups of civilians who just happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time is not fighting. It is mass murder, and there is no "right" way to do it.

Maybe you should read some history... Might make you understand the present.

Heh... well, if by "understanding" you mean agreeing with you, then there's not much chance of that.

By the way, I never called you a nazi.
I just think your arguments make no sense and can never lead to anything except more and more and more war, that's all.

[CyberGnu]

ah, so it is simple misunderstanding. You somehow believe that somewhere Palestinians oppress Israelis?

This is the crux of the matter. Israel occupies palestine. The palestinians have the moral right to do anything in their power to throw of the yoke of oppression. As for the 'soldier vs. civilian' argument, I consider it specious. Every day the occupation continues, another palestinian is killed. Why do you expect this palestinian to sacrifice himself so that an Israeli civilian will live?

No. The only answer is that oppression should never be allowed to continue. If it takes the complete obliteration of the occupying people to save one single innocent life, it is worth it.

BTW, you have to diffrentiate between 'random groups of civilians' and plain 'civilians'. What you describe would work with, for example, Norwegians. Killing a bunch of Norwegians because of the Israeli occupation, that would indeed be mass murder.

But Israeli civilians are just as culpable as Israeli soldiers. Nothing randnom about their decision to support the occupation.


Finally, I called Israel a fascist state (and by using old Nazi terms, implied Nazi ideals). You claimed I was likewise. I find it baffling that opposing oppression would equate with fascism.

[Al'Kimiya]

A fairly interesting story (or depending on your stance bunch of "zionist lies"):

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/article.php3?id=1384

It's important to see things from a larger perspective.

[CyberGnu]

And that perspective is that pro-Israelis shouldn't write when they are high?

[Arrian]

As for the 'soldier vs. civilian' argument, I consider it specious.

And it is for that very reason that I have trouble respecting you or your opinions. Otherwise, I tend to enjoy debating with you, but on this we are so far apart that debate is pointless. Same with the "Israel is a festering sore on humanity" rhetoric. Demonizing your enemy doesn't actually improve your argument (that goes for you too, Siro).

-Arrian

[Ming]

Enough with name the calling and personal insults.

As with all debates, there are two sides. If you want to discuss the "issues" in a CIVILIZED fashion... go ahead.

If all you want to do is call people Nazi's or advocate killing an entire race... do it somewhere else.

Because if you don't.. I'll make the choice for you

[Al'Kimiya]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
And that perspective is that pro-Israelis shouldn't write when they are high?

No. guess again

[Guardian]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
ah, so it is simple misunderstanding. You somehow believe that somewhere Palestinians oppress Israelis?

The way things are down there right now? Yes, I believe they would if they could.
-Which, in my opinion, means that they're no better.

This is the crux of the matter. Israel occupies palestine. The palestinians have the moral right to do anything in their power to throw of the yoke of oppression.

In my book, a person is always morally responsible for the consequences of his own actions, no matter what anybody else does. So, it's no more right for a Palestinian to blow up Israelis than it is for an Israeli to blow up Palestinians.

The result is the same: People die.

Thus, what you seem to be implying is essentially that some people are less human than others.

As for the 'soldier vs. civilian' argument, I consider it specious.

Well, I don't.

Every day the occupation continues, another palestinian is killed. Why do you expect this palestinian to sacrifice himself so that an Israeli civilian will live?

I don't.

However, I do expect him not to go off an blow himself up along with a busload of others, because that's not going to help his people.

No. The only answer is that oppression should never be allowed to continue. If it takes the complete obliteration of the occupying people to save one single innocent life, it is worth it.

Ah, yes... The Final Solution.

BTW, you have to diffrentiate between 'random groups of civilians' and plain 'civilians'.

No, I don't. Civilians are civilians.

What you describe would work with, for example, Norwegians. Killing a bunch of Norwegians because of the Israeli occupation, that would indeed be mass murder.

Well, many Israelis have about as much influence on their government's actions as the average Norwegian has...

But Israeli civilians are just as culpable as Israeli soldiers.

I think not.

Nothing randnom about their decision to support the occupation.

Well, that's a decision some of them never made.
Others made it only after being bombed...

Finally, I called Israel a fascist state (and by using old Nazi terms, implied Nazi ideals). You claimed I was likewise. I find it baffling that opposing oppression would equate with fascism.

Opposing oppression is not fascism.
Being willing to commit genocide against a "lesser" people to achieve your own political goals is.

[Eli]

The results of the Israeli inaction against Palestinian mortar shooting can now be seen. They already regularly launch Kasam rockets on Israeli towns near the Gaza Strip.
One had landed in Sderot few minutes ago.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Dino, I don't think ou quite got the point... Hamas doesn;t care about international opinion.

I wasn't refering to Hamas, in specific, but rather to Palestinians in general.