So how are you celebrating the Palestinian independance day? (9/13)

[CyberGnu]

Oh, and as far as Israeli settlements go, or Israeli security concerns: let Israel bargain for it. If they want 30 square miles in place X, let them offer 30 square miles in place Y in trade. The palestinians doesn't want that trade? Offer 60 square miles at place Y. If the land is that important to Israel, surely Israel must be willing to trade for it.

[Arrian]

Point of clarification:

The 28% of Palestine you would partition off for the refugees... do you mean part of the West Bank and/or Gaza, or are you using "Palestine" as a term for land that is part of Israel?

Second question: This 28% would have the right of self-determination, right? So three choices: join Palestine, join Israel, have your own state?

As for the "reparations," how about calling that money "foreign aid" or something a little less accusatory to the Israelis (I'm sure they would be happy as pigs in **** to pay "reparations" to the Palestinians).

Equal GNP for Israel and Palestine? You're gonna need a lot of international aid for a long while to acheive that. But I certainly agree that it would be a good thing.

I'm surprised you didn't say all settlements must go. Hell, I'd say that, and you probably think I'm an Israeli apologist being paid by the CIA or something.

-Arrian

ps Sorry about the "editing" thing, the post I took your lovely "festering sore" quote from must've been on page 2, and I went back and didn't see it on page 3... my bad.

[Sirotnikov]

What I expect them to be is pragmatic. And whatever you feel about Arafat, he certainly is pragmatic. Willing to compromise? Well, they've already shown that, in 1993. But asking to receive LESS than was agreed on in '93 is not compromising, that would be 'caving'.

Pragmatic?

A leader which decided to put his nation through several years of uprising, against a larger more powerfull enemy, is pragmatic?

A leader who preaches to get 100% of Israel, is pragmatic?

Hmm, I must have missed something here. At what point during your quoted period did the occupation end? Or could it be that you are extrapolating from a spurious set of data? "Yesterday it was 26 degrees outside, today it is 27. The temperature will therefore increase every day until we spontaneously combust". I see a great career as a business major in your future.

The fact is that each step towards their freedom only increased the terror.

That doesn't lead me to believe that when they will be 100% free (in the limits of 67 borders) , they will suddenly stop all terror.

Of course they don't know what they are talking about. The only other alternative would be that your own media is lying to you... That could never happen, could it? It's much easier to believe that the free press serving 2 billion people have no idea about what they are doing than that the partisan press serving a country based on theft is lying...

I haven't talked about "my own media"

I am talking about several internet sites which are american based which you refused to accept saying that they are "israeli propoganda" and accused them of "misquoting" or inventing facts.

Your point being? Apart from showing that I actually have an un-biased view of what media to believe.

LOL, you are dumb.

That infact proves that you are biased, since you refuse to accept anything anti-palestinian, even if the arabs and palestinians admit to it.

BTW, did a search on your username in the OT forums. An old saying involving stones and glass houses came to mind.

You're so cool.
Can you search for my name on other forums too?

If you would search for my user name on the whole site for the whole history, you'd see that only some 50% of my posts relate directly to Israel.

The rest deal with Civ 3, Civ 2, The Apolyton community, OT: Religion, Morality, Democracy, lots and lots of plain joking discussions or stories.

However, until two months ago, rarely did I notice your name, even in the threads dealing with what you say you care about - conservatives, george bush, censorship etc.

Only from your perspective, as there are no palestinian posters here. The problem of preception here is that while the pro-palestinians all have access to and read unbiased media, the pro-israelis in the best case read unbiased media as a complement to the partisan press.

You have so far brough 0 substantial evidence of "partisan press".

I would also hardly call the media accessed by most pro-palestinains "unbiased".

Kamrat-X has been quoting the Palestinain Information Ministry web site, Axi has been quoting indymedia and similar sources, in which anyone can post anything, and I've read personally articles about Israelis making gas chambers on indymedia.

You on the other hand, take pride in your lack of sources.

You had no knowledge about most terrorist attacks that occured in Israel which I presented to you, and have used your preconception to decide that palestinian terrorists have aimed only at military personnel.

The same preconception was used to decide that Israeli military aim mostly at non-military personnel.

A palestinian poster who insists that only Hamas speaks the truth would be most illuminating on where the extremes are... Of course, I don't really expect you to see how in the middle I am when it comes to media bias, as I expect that anyone not realizing the glory of Grosse Israel must be a raving muslim fantatic, n'est ce pas?

I've had talks to you on ICQ where i explained why you are not at all in the middle.

You are basically refusing to accept any source which counters your point of view, claiming that only world known (american) sources can be objective, even though I often proved how they are not objective.

Also I find it extremely arrogant to compare Hamas literature with Israeli press.

I engage in the political debates I find most important. The festering wound that is Israel corrupts the entire civilized world, showcasing how propaganda and sufficient bribe money for politicians can overcome ideals such as justice and freedom.

I just want to bolden it. No comment.

Global warming, as a policy issue. Greatest physical threat against humanity today, I believe.

I thought that was Israel

Censorship, George Bush, raving conservatives. Other minor issues as they come up.

Aha, so America is a minor issue compared to Israel, right?

Hmm, quite fitting to have the prayer shawl as the symbol of Grosse Israel, when the question of Israel has replaced judaism as the religion of choice...

The Prayer shawl was the symbol of Israel before it was even an actual country.

As for labeling it "Grosse Israel" it is yet another pathetic attempt to label Israel expansionist, even though it gave up Sinai, and was willing to give up up to 98% of the Golan, and 97% of the West Bank and Gaza.

Yeah, everyone knows that 'Le Monde' is run by expatriate palestinians. Well, by 'everyone' I of course mean you and only you, Siro. The rest of us still believes that 'Le Monde' is a french newspaper.

When have I claimed the former about Le Monde?

You have however claimed that memri is run by israeli right wing fanatics and can not spell the word truth.

You also have pointed zero attention to german and american media sources which found doubts in the popular belief that IDF killed Mohammed al-Durah.

You also pointed zero attention to explicit admissions by reuters and ap that they often censor their news pieces, because of "concern for their reporters".

You pointed zero attention at the BBC admitting they were threatened not to take pictures of armed militants, during a "peaceful demonstration", at which the IDF was actually firing.

You pointed zero attention at the Italian newspaper editor, finding reasons to appologize before the Palestinains for describing the truth about their actions, and promising "we are on your side".


And then you go ahead and say that international media is objective?

When you have a source that is unbiased, please post it. But unless you have that, don't bother.

There are no completely unbiased sources.

There are only those whose bias can be accounted and level of trustworthyness can be trusted.

You seem to believe in the complete lack of bias and absolute truthfulness of several sources, which seems to be your downfall.

For every israeli lie there is an equivalent arab lie.

That is an unsubstatiated claim.

When have the Israelis accused the palestinians of stealing body parts? Of using naked women to seduce them? Of planning to explode hebrew holy sites (oh wait, the pals did do that. my mistake).

Just look at this very thread. That the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represents the Jordan and the Euphrat is a well documented arab myth. Just like how palestine was deserted when the jews came is a well documented israeli myth.

It seems wierd that you would call that myth well documented.

Where exactly is it documented and for how long have you known about it?

Furthermore, it is uncomparable, as the stripes story is complete fabrication, while the land being deserted is a matter of point of view.

The point is that before 1921, Palestine was the name of the area including Jordan.

The area excluding Jordan, Israel-Palestine, was infact similar to how Israelis describe it.

The Israel you see now, was de-swamped, and re-forested by the Jews and the Jewish foundation, beginning in the early 20th century.

Many of the public works were done by Jewish organziations under the Brittish mandate.

But again, you have read absolutely 0 about this, and I'm arguing against your preconceptions, formed by quotes from Saeb Erecat.

Naturally, since these honest sources most of the time tell you that Israel commits crimes and atrocities, the chances of you acknowledging them are slim...

It's funny how you call news published by sources which at times admit that they print slanted things because they are threatened, "honest".

[Sirotnikov]

Gnu, how come you never post about the festering wound that is Russia? Iraq? Iran? Syria which to this day occupies Lebanon?

How about Saudi Arabia? How about Zimbabwe (iirc) which now has instated censorship?

How about corrupt south American countries which contribute to world drugs and such?

Why haven't you ever mentioned Sri Lanka? Or the Kurds and Turks?


It appears that your point of view is clear:

The festering wound that is Israel corrupts the entire civilized world, showcasing how propaganda and sufficient bribe money for politicians can overcome ideals such as justice and freedom.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by CyberGnu

Yearly reparations to build up palestinian economy. In a perfect world the GNP of Israel and palestine should be the same.

Great idea! Since it was the europeans who drove the Jews out of their former (european) homelands then the EU should pick up the whole tab.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
A fair solution. I've outlined one several times in the past. First of, an immediate end to the occupation.

But a Huge Chunk of the West Bank and Gaza remained unoccupied for 7 years until the current Intafida. Clearly, That isn't a winner.

and ironclad agreement that Israel cannot enter the nascent palestinian state for any reason. Any. Even if 'credible sources' claim that Arafat is building a nuclear bomb in his basement.

And we all know how Ironclad agreements turn out. In the middleeast...they don't. One side or the other (most often the Palestinians, it seems) breaks it. You'd rather see the destruction of Israel and the remnants of Jewry than let them take the only ,logical actions to insure their safety.

If not, any settlemtn will last roughly two days... That's how long it will take Shaorn to come up with 'credible sources' justifying a re-occupation. If there are complaints, take them to the UN. Possibly a stationing of permanent UN troops in palestine, for peace keeping and protection.

Yeah, and we all know how great the UN track record is. Bosnia and Sierra Leone are recent winners. Not to mention Somalia.

Either divide jerusalem, or make it an international city. If the latter, it has to be thw whole jerusalem, not just the arab parts.

Won't happen.

Yearly reparations to build up palestinian economy. In a perfect world the GNP of Israel and palestine should be the same.

I agree. The Surrounding Arab nations should be handing over all shorts of devolpment aid, especially after they told the Palestinians to get out of dodge so they could attack the Jews in '48.

And finally, the right of return. Partion off 28 percent of palestine, and give it to the palestinian refugees. The israeli line is that RoR cannot be acknowledged, because the jewish majority would be undermined. Well, this way that wouldn't be a problem. The new state could either chose to belong to palestine, or start one on their own. If the latter, severe UN intervention to provide for security and police.

Right of Return? What BS! That's a bit like saying "Hey! Lets move a whole sh*tload of Russians into Finland because they lived there before WW1!". I'm sure Sweden wouldn't like it.

[CyberGnu]

Arrian, I mean 'palestine' as in pre-1948. With 22% to the current palestinian almost-state, and 28% to arab refugees, you would partiion 50-50. The psychologial impact of an equal partition shouldn't be unerestimated.

Those three choices would in reality be two choices, right? I don't expect Israel to allow a palestinian state with 3-4 million arabs to join Israel... Nor they to want to.

Well, with 'reparations' I meant reparations for the occupations effect on the economy. But feel free to call it foreign aid if you want to

When I said equal GNP, I actually envisioned coupling the reparations to the difference in economy. I think this particular point really is untenable, though...

As far as the settlements go, well, as I said, I think that Israel should have to bargain for them. With an impatial mediator to ensure that Israel doesn't use the bargaining as a chip in the overall settlement.



Now, I don't believe Israel would agree with any of these points. But this would be a good starting points for negotiations. This would be 'demanding everything', not the measly 22% that Siro claims is 'everything'. You see what I mean?

[Sheik]

I am not celebrating it and feel that the Palestinains should never have a country.

[CyberGnu]

Pragmatic?

A leader which decided to put his nation through several years of uprising, against a larger more powerfull enemy, is pragmatic?

If the alternative is worse, then it is pragmatic. The palestinians think occupation is worse. Are you disagreeing with that?

A leader who preaches to get 100% of Israel, is pragmatic?

And apart from your nightmares, where does this happen?

The fact is that each step towards their freedom only increased the terror.

That doesn't lead me to believe that when they will be 100% free (in the limits of 67 borders) , they will suddenly stop all terror.

Of course it did. Giving a little freedom is worse than not giving any at all. But actually ending the occupation, that you haven't done. So your point is still moot.

I haven't talked about "my own media"

I am talking about several internet sites which are american based which you refused to accept saying that they are "israeli propoganda" and accused them of "misquoting" or inventing facts.

Why does it matter if they are american based if they have a clear agenda? We're not discussing geography. Biased is biased.

LOL, you are dumb.

That infact proves that you are biased, since you refuse to accept anything anti-palestinian, even if the arabs and palestinians admit to it.

That logic thing realy isn't your domain, is it? I only read western media because I don;t trust either of the partisan sides. I accept whatever that media writes. To do otherwise would make me biased. Last time I checked, you were the one who doesn't believe when the NYT writes something nasty about Israel... But you just don't see it, do you...

I pity you.

You're so cool.
Can you search for my name on other forums too?

If you would search for my user name on the whole site for the whole history, you'd see that only some 50% of my posts relate directly to Israel.

The rest deal with Civ 3, Civ 2, The Apolyton community, OT: Religion, Morality, Democracy, lots and lots of plain joking discussions or stories.

However, until two months ago, rarely did I notice your name, even in the threads dealing with what you say you care about - conservatives, george bush, censorship etc.

What the hell are you talking about? I've been a member for years, had over 1500 posts before you even joined. I don't participate in the Civ forums because there hasn't been a civ game worth playing in a long time.

And I still don;t know what you are getting at. Do you even know if you have a point? I doubt it.

You have so far brough 0 substantial evidence of "partisan press".

Well, except for that one time when I actually analyzed one weeks worth of reporting and found it very lacking?

I would also hardly call the media accessed by most pro-palestinains "unbiased".

Kamrat-X has been quoting the Palestinain Information Ministry web site, Axi has been quoting indymedia and similar sources, in which anyone can post anything, and I've read personally articles about Israelis making gas chambers on indymedia.

Well, you have to take that up with them. In Kamrat-X's case I know it is an isolated incident.

You on the other hand, take pride in your lack of sources.

No, siro, I take pride in that I only trust sources of quality. I'd rather have one single good source than a thousand bad ones. I don't expect you to understand this.

You had no knowledge about most terrorist attacks that occured in Israel which I presented to you, and have used your preconception to decide that palestinian terrorists have aimed only at military personnel.

You gave me a list of 12 items. I refuted half of them, debunked an additional 4 or so. Remaining 2, which I hadn;t heard about. I did a search in NYT and CNN, who didn;t report them. If you want to claim they happened, you have to show a source. You just can't make things up, or let the JP editor make things up for you.

The same preconception was used to decide that Israeli military aim mostly at non-military personnel.

Where have I claimed this?

I've had talks to you on ICQ where i explained why you are not at all in the middle.

You are basically refusing to accept any source which counters your point of view, claiming that only world known (american) sources can be objective, even though I often proved how they are not objective.

Again, the whole logic thing isn;t working out. My viewpoint is quite pro-palestinian. There is no question about that, even with you. American newspapers are slanted towards pro-israeli. European are slanted towards pro-palestinian. Overall, the slant it not much, and I don;t think worth making a big deal about. But due to geographic location, I mainly read american media. I quote american media. I refer to american media. Pro-israeli/impartial media.

How does that fit with your post? It doesn't.

Also I find it extremely arrogant to compare Hamas literature with Israeli press.

Turth hurts, doesn;t it?

I just want to bolden it. No comment.

Well, I hope you think about it.

I thought that was Israel

I don't think Israel can plunge the world into a thirld world war, at least not one where the globe is devastated. Global warming can, however.

Aha, so America is a minor issue compared to Israel, right?

Again I have missed something, aparently. What nations is it that the US occupies, again? What ethnicities is it that the US is trying to uproot or destray?

The US has issues. So does Sweden. And Uruguay. But none of them has the ramifications that Israel does.

[/quote]The Prayer shawl was the symbol of Israel before it was even an actual country. [/quote]

Your point being? I don;t think you understood mine.

As for labeling it "Grosse Israel" it is yet another pathetic attempt to label Israel expansionist, even though it gave up Sinai, and was willing to give up up to 98% of the Golan, and 97% of the West Bank and Gaza.

So take my solution to the right of return. Would solve a lot of your problems. We both know this is not going to happen.

BTW, do I really need to remind you of your leaders word? 'the most remote settlement is to me like Tel Aviv'. Heil Sharon!

When have I claimed the former about Le Monde?

At 13:09 today. This post, to be exact:

The whole state viability issue you like to brag about, is revisionist history, instated by the palestinians in the summer of 2001.

You have no idea what you are talking about, do you?

You also have pointed zero attention to german and american media sources which found doubts in the popular belief that IDF killed Mohammed al-Durah.

source?

You also pointed zero attention to explicit admissions by reuters and ap that they often censor their news pieces, because of "concern for their reporters".

source?

You pointed zero attention at the BBC admitting they were threatened not to take pictures of armed militants, during a "peaceful demonstration", at which the IDF was actually firing.

source?

You pointed zero attention at the Italian newspaper editor, finding reasons to appologize before the Palestinains for describing the truth about their actions, and promising "we are on your side".

Source and context?


However, granted that these are all true, I'd still settle for media that strives to be impartial,and does not have a stake in the argument then either of two partisan sides.

And then you go ahead and say that international media is objective?

Well, I can;t really say anything about that Italian paper, since I don;t read it. I've yet to see any f the medias I read say this, however. Feel free to discredit my sources if you do have a quotation like this about anything I acually quote.

And work on that logic, will you? One paper claiming partiality does not mean all the other ones are. For me, that would just mean I would stop reading the paper.

There are no completely unbiased sources.

There are only those whose bias can be accounted and level of trustworthyness can be trusted.

You seem to believe in the complete lack of bias and absolute truthfulness of several sources, which seems to be your downfall.

Of course not. What gave you this idea?

That is an unsubstatiated claim.

When have the Israelis accused the palestinians of stealing body parts? Of using naked women to seduce them? Of planning to explode hebrew holy sites (oh wait, the pals did do that. my mistake).

How about al Quida setting up training camps in Gaza? Taken directly from the JP.

Equivalent is not the same as identical.

It seems wierd that you would call that myth well documented.

Where exactly is it documented and for how long have you known about it?

Furthermore, it is uncomparable, as the stripes story is complete fabrication, while the land being deserted is a matter of point of view.

The point is that before 1921, Palestine was the name of the area including Jordan.

The area excluding Jordan, Israel-Palestine, was infact similar to how Israelis describe it.

The Israel you see now, was de-swamped, and re-forested by the Jews and the Jewish foundation, beginning in the early 20th century.

Many of the public works were done by Jewish organziations under the Brittish mandate.

So?

We've been through this before. You are lying, and you know you are lying. The british white papers has that down black on white.

Oooh, but I forgot. They don't conform to the only truth there is, which can only be found in Israeli text books, right?

But again, you have read absolutely 0 about this, and I'm arguing against your preconceptions, formed by quotes from Saeb Erecat.

ahh, so when I quote those british papers, you are assuming work on the principle of an infinite amount of monkeys, and you just have the incredibly bad luck of being in that one paralell universe where my random key-taps actually produced the exact same sentence I claimed to be quoting?

My eyes are watering again. Man, you feel so dumb right now.

It's funny how you call news published by sources which at times admit that they print slanted things because they are threatened, "honest".

When did the NYT do that?


and you still haven't explained to me why you prefer lies to truth, even ifthe truth might be slanted because of threats.

[CyberGnu]

Gnu, how come you never post about the festering wound that is Russia? Iraq? Iran? Syria which to this day occupies Lebanon?

How about Saudi Arabia? How about Zimbabwe (iirc) which now has instated censorship?

How about corrupt south American countries which contribute to world drugs and such?

Why haven't you ever mentioned Sri Lanka? Or the Kurds and Turks?


It appears that your point of view is clear:

Because the western world isn't supporting any of those countries.

As it is, the US makes a mockery out of their words about 'promoting freedom and justice', as they are actively supporting Israel.

[CyberGnu]

Strangelove, I actually agree to some extent. However, the US caused most of the problems since then, so I think the EU and US are equally repsonsible.

[CyberGnu]

Lonestar, 'huge chunk' is not the same as the whole.

And we all know how Ironclad agreements turn out. In the middleeast...they don't. One side or the other (most often the Palestinians, it seems) breaks it. You'd rather see the destruction of Israel and the remnants of Jewry than let them take the only ,logical actions to insure their safety.

ah, yes, that's why palestine is occupying Israel? Oh, wait, it seems they aren;t...

Yeah, and we all know how great the UN track record is. Bosnia and Sierra Leone are recent winners. Not to mention Somalia.

All depending on the mandate. Worked in cyprus, for example. And Croatia, IIRC.

[Sonic]

Sheik, please explain why...

Terrorism will never stop until Jews will give Palestinians independence. However I believe it probably wouldn't been even started on such a huge degree if not Israeli tactics to send "newcomers" to build villages and send army to protect like 100 Jews in Palestinian cities... This is just horrible, if compared to what Jewish army/government does HAMAS is a peaceful organisation (Jewish army for example kills 3 times more Palestinians than all the terrorist organisations kills Jews combined. Also such apartheid actions as not selling land to Palestinians and destroying their homes are plain horrible). It is quite strange that Jews does to other people what once was done to them (in nazi Germany).

[CyberGnu]

Won't happen.

see my post to arrian

I agree. The Surrounding Arab nations should be handing over all shorts of devolpment aid, especially after they told the Palestinians to get out of dodge so they could attack the Jews in '48.

So it is the arab nations fault that Israel is occupying palestine? Hmm, does that mean Poland owes France reparation from WW2?

Right of Return? What BS! That's a bit like saying "Hey! Lets move a whole sh*tload of Russians into Finland because they lived there before WW1!". I'm sure Sweden wouldn't like it.

?

[Panag]

Originally posted by Sonic
Sheik, please explain why...

Terrorism will never stop until Jews will give Palestinians independence. However I believe it probably wouldn't been even started on such a huge degree if not Israeli tactics to send "newcomers" to build villages and send army to protect like 100 Jews in Palestinian cities... This is just horrible, if compared to what Jewish army/government does HAMAS is a peaceful organisation (Jewish army for example kills 3 times more Palestinians than all the terrorist organisations kills Jews combined. Also such apartheid actions as not selling land to Palestinians and destroying their homes are plain horrible). It is quite strange that Jews does to other people what once was done to them (in nazi Germany).

hi ,

even when they have "independence" they shall continue with terrorism , ......

and unless something has changed since this morning , there is no Jewish army , ......

if you find that Hamas is so peacefull , well come over for a cup of coffee , .......

actually ones again this thread is about people who have to deal with terrorism each day , and those who criticise people without even knowing all the facts , ....

have a nice day