So how are you celebrating the Palestinian independance day? (9/13)

[axi]

Errrr, excuse me, Eli, that flag of yours...

....could you explain to me what those two horizontal blue stripes are supposed to represent?

Some bird told me that they actually represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, between which lies the land of Sion, which is supposed to be the "lebensraum" for the people of Israel. This is what the star of David among the two stripes is symbolising: Jewish control ove the entire area.

I guess this includes Palestine, Lebanon, half of Egypt, Syria, Jordan and half of Iraq. That's alot of space don't you think.

[Az]

Some bird told me that they actually represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, between which lies the land of Sion,

Well, from now on, you can take all that person says about the Middle-East conflict and throw it into the dust-bin. The two stripes represent a similarity to a Jewish praying cloth, while the star is the simbol of Israel.

one of your palestinian immigrant friends, I presume.

[CyberGnu]

Notyou, what do you mean with "legitimate concerns"? Every persons right to 'legitimate defense' ended quite abruptly when Israel was founded on stolen land. The whole plan of Israel was to milk post-holocaust sympathy until it had occupied the land long enough for people to forget that it was stolen in the first place. And it is succeeding quite well.

This still doesn't convey any legitimacy on the theft.

Quite incorrect. Peace can only come when the attacks stop. On both sides.

Not incorrect. You just failed to follow the statement to its logical conclusion. The attacks will stop when Israels occupation ends -> Peace achieved.

[CyberGnu]

Siro, big difference between an if-then statement and a logical operation...

if
{
israel_occupation_ended == 1
if
{
number of attacks == 0
echo "peace achieved"
else
echo "possibility for peace present"
}
else
echo "greed more important then peace - conflict continues"
}

[Sirotnikov]

Gnu - that is nonsense based on your preconception of the palestinian leadership as peaceloving and willing to compromise.

so far, in our discussion about sources and such, you have cast doubt on every anti-palestinian source, claiming it is unreliable, and left only those sources which you called neutral, because they are so far from the action, they have no idea what happends here, and can hardly follow it.

You've also quite successfully proved that even arab sites, when they present the real palestinian view point, are either mistranslated or dead wrong and misrepresent the palestinian POV.

Your bias is without precedence, and that is wierd, considering you are not an active participant (israeli or palestinian).

Furthermore, I haven't actually seen you contribute to any other major political discussion on the OT, which makes you seem like a one trick (anti-israeli) troll.

The attacks will stop when Israels occupation ends -> Peace achieved.

This is your preconception and it has proven itself wrong.

Each time a step was taken towards palestinian independance, terror increased.

Shortly after the PLO took over Gaza and Hebron , terrorist attacks in Israel began.

Shortly after the closest step to peace, ever, even worse terrorist attacks in Israel began.


The whole state viability issue you like to brag about, is revisionist history, instated by the palestinians in the summer of 2001.

If you would be so kind to review pre-2001 sources, you would see my point.

I've presented to you reports proving my point, but you refused to read them, claiming it's completely biased and misrepresented and misquoted.


You infact, argue without any real facts, with only lack of knowledge to back you up.

I really don't get how can you so proudly use the phrase "I never heard of it" to back so many of your claims against Israel.

[Sirotnikov]

Some bird told me that they actually represent the rivers Nile and Euphrates, between which lies the land of Sion, which is supposed to be the "lebensraum" for the people of Israel. This is what the star of David among the two stripes is symbolising: Jewish control ove the entire area.

This is the exact **** we have to deal with. Why the hell would you believe this? How could you even mention that for a second? I am very very disappointed in you.

If I were to tell you that the Palestinian flag represents blood flowing on the black scortched earth and the green grass, would you for a second take it seriously?

This is the same ignorant anti-semitic bull**** we have to deal with for centuries.

The Magen David is also probably some satanic sign, and the Menorah is also Satan's pitchfork.

This is a very good parody of these "truths":

http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1200/hanukkah.html

And then people come, and say that there's no reason for Jews to have a state, since "there is no way" that jews will again be persecuted and hated and spread propoganda against.

But hey, if our flag and our holy cloth are symbols of evil and militarist expansion - maybe Israel should be disbanded.

[CyberGnu]

Gnu - that is nonsense based on your preconception of the palestinian leadership as peaceloving and willing to compromise.

Peaceloving? Of course not. You've made this claim dozens of times by now, and every time I deny it. Doesn't seem to register. What I expect them to be is pragmatic. And whatever you feel about Arafat, he certainly is pragmatic. Willing to compromise? Well, they've already shown that, in 1993. But asking to receive LESS than was agreed on in '93 is not compromising, that would be 'caving'.

This is your preconception and it has proven itself wrong.

Each time a step was taken towards palestinian independance, terror increased.

Shortly after the PLO took over Gaza and Hebron , terrorist attacks in Israel began.

Shortly after the closest step to peace, ever, even worse terrorist attacks in Israel began.

Hmm, I must have missed something here. At what point during your quoted period did the occupation end? Or could it be that you are extrapolating from a spurious set of data? "Yesterday it was 26 degrees outside, today it is 27. The temperature will therefore increase every day until we spontaneously combust". I see a great career as a business major in your future.

so far, in our discussion about sources and such, you have cast doubt on every anti-palestinian source, claiming it is unreliable, and left only those sources which you called neutral, because they are so far from the action, they have no idea what happends here, and can hardly follow it.

Of course they don't know what they are talking about. The only other alternative would be that your own media is lying to you... That could never happen, could it? It's much easier to believe that the free press serving 2 billion people have no idea about what they are doing than that the partisan press serving a country based on theft is lying...

Wow, the sarcasm actually made my eyes water at the end.

You've also quite successfully proved that even arab sites, when they present the real palestinian view point, are either mistranslated or dead wrong and misrepresent the palestinian POV.

Your point being? Apart from showing that I actually have an un-biased view of what media to believe.

Your bias is without precedence, and that is wierd, considering you are not an active participant (israeli or palestinian).

Only from your perspective, as there are no palestinian posters here. The problem of preception here is that while the pro-palestinians all have access to and read unbiased media, the pro-israelis in the best case read unbiased media as a complement to the partisan press.

A palestinian poster who insists that only Hamas speaks the truth would be most illuminating on where the extremes are... Of course, I don't really expect you to see how in the middle I am when it comes to media bias, as I expect that anyone not realizing the glory of Grosse Israel must be a raving muslim fantatic, n'est ce pas?

[CyberGnu]

Furthermore, I haven't actually seen you contribute to any other major political discussion on the OT, which makes you seem like a one trick (anti-israeli) troll.

?

I engage in the political debates I find most important. The festering wound that is Israel corrupts the entire civilized world, showcasing how propaganda and sufficient bribe money for politicians can overcome ideals such as justice and freedom.

Global warming, as a scientific issue. Abortion and evolution, likewise. It bothers the hell out of me when people insists on arguing a scientific subject they have no clue about.

Global warming, as a policy issue. Greatest physical threat against humanity today, I believe.

Censorship, George Bush, raving conservatives. Other minor issues as they come up.

So I guess that was just another cheap shot when nothing of substance could be posted in reply... Really really sad. How can you continue the selfdeception if you can't even come up with replies? Hmm, quite fitting to have the prayer shawl as the symbol of Grosse Israel, when the question of Israel has replaced judaism as the religion of choice...

[CyberGnu]

BTW, did a search on your username in the OT forums. An old saying involving stones and glass houses came to mind.

[CyberGnu]

The whole state viability issue you like to brag about, is revisionist history, instated by the palestinians in the summer of 2001.

If you would be so kind to review pre-2001 sources, you would see my point.

I've presented to you reports proving my point, but you refused to read them, claiming it's completely biased and misrepresented and misquoted.

Yeah, everyone knows that 'Le Monde' is run by expatriate palestinians. Well, by 'everyone' I of course mean you and only you, Siro. The rest of us still believes that 'Le Monde' is a french newspaper.

When you have a source that is unbiased, please post it. But unless you have that, don't bother.

For every israeli lie there is an equivalent arab lie. Just look at this very thread. That the blue stripes on the Israeli flag represents the Jordan and the Euphrat is a well documented arab myth. Just like how palestine was deserted when the jews came is a well documented israeli myth.

What comes out of slinging lies at each other? Nothing. Only by quoting honest sources can anything progress. Naturally, since these honest sources most of the time tell you that Israel commits crimes and atrocities, the chances of you acknowledging them are slim...

[Arrian]

Edit: Taken from a Cybergnu post that appears to have since been edited (hmm, I wonder why?) -

The festering wound that is Israel corrupts the entire civilized world

Why don't you just go join Hamas and be done with it?

It's one thing to argue that the occupation is illegal and/or morally wrong. It is another to call an entire nation a "festering sore corrupting the entire civilized world."

Where does all the venom in your posts come from gnu? Fiery rhetoric doesn't make your arguments any more persuasive, you know. It's just fluff. Emotion, even.

I have seen you say several times now that Israel was founded on stolen land. Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that you are right. What would you do about that NOW? No time machines are available, sorry. Would you pick up and move the entire nation of Israel elsewhere?

The reason I ask is this: you said that the Israeli's right of self-defense was foreitted the moment Israel was founded on stolen land. If that logic holds, and there is a peace settlement that provides for a Palestinian State (a viable one, even), and the most hardline Pal terror groups (Hamas, et al) continue their attacks (stated goal of taking back all of mandatory Palestine), Israel will still not have any right to self-defense. According to your logic, that is. Therefore, how can Israel possibly make peace? Just curious...

-Arrian

[Imran Siddiqui]

Would you pick up and move the entire nation of Israel elsewhere?

Yes... Germany sounds like a better place to put it .

[Arrian]

What would the exact borders be? What would be done with the people who live there now?

You may have been half-joking, but I was actually asking Cybergnu a serious question: I want to know - exactly - what he thinks is a fair and equitable solution to this problem. What would he do with the "festering sore?"

-Arrian

[CyberGnu]

Edited?

I haven't edited anything...

[CyberGnu]

A fair solution. I've outlined one several times in the past. First of, an immediate end to the occupation. and ironclad agreement that Israel cannot enter the nascent palestinian state for any reason. Any. Even if 'credible sources' claim that Arafat is building a nuclear bomb in his basement. If not, any settlemtn will last roughly two days... That's how long it will take Shaorn to come up with 'credible sources' justifying a re-occupation. If there are complaints, take them to the UN. Possibly a stationing of permanent UN troops in palestine, for peace keeping and protection.

Either divide jerusalem, or make it an international city. If the latter, it has to be thw whole jerusalem, not just the arab parts.

Yearly reparations to build up palestinian economy. In a perfect world the GNP of Israel and palestine should be the same.

And finally, the right of return. Partion off 28 percent of palestine, and give it to the palestinian refugees. The israeli line is that RoR cannot be acknowledged, because the jewish majority would be undermined. Well, this way that wouldn't be a problem. The new state could either chose to belong to palestine, or start one on their own. If the latter, severe UN intervention to provide for security and police.