Historical Finger Pointing, Issue I: World War I

[Alexander's Horse]

A.J.P. Taylor was a fine historian, one of the best in English and I highly recommend any of his work, including on WWI. Although I think Taylor's use of irony would be lost on most of the people commenting here, especially the Americans with their one dimensional understanding of English.

But at the end of the day Taylor's work really re-inforces Fischer's. He shows Germany was ready to launch an offensive war for European dominance and did so when the opportunity presented itself in July/August 1914.

[Bosh]

Adalbertus: England was not bound by any treaty obligations to join on the Russian and French side, one of the main reasons they joined was Lord Grey's astoundingly incompetant diplomatic policy in which he never made it clear that the UK would declare war on Germany if Germany violated Belgium's netrality.

And Belgium was NOT part of germany, as Flanders it was traditionally part of France until the Austrians got their hands on it when they inheirited all the Burgundians' land....

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Boshko
Adalbertus: England was not bound by any treaty obligations to join on the Russian and French side, one of the main reasons they joined was Lord Grey's astoundingly incompetant diplomatic policy in which he never made it clear that the UK would declare war on Germany if Germany violated Belgium's netrality.

Ah well this where all this Germany wasn't to blame crap falls apart whether you believe Fischer or not. Germany had signed a treaty guaranteeing Belgian neutrality, which they violated without a second thought. In fact their whole war plan revolved around doing so.

Its rather perverse to blame Grey for Germany's flagrant violation of a solemn treaty. It never entered Grey's mind that Germany would not honour its obligations on Belgium.

Meanwhile in Berlin, Bethman Hollweg called the Belgian treaty a "scrap of paper", which shows the mentality of the Kaiser's government. Not much different to Hitler and Ribbentrop when it came to honouring international agreements. And you're saying these gangsters were innocent of causing the war? LOL.

[TheStinger]

Foreign and Prime ministers who could decide policy on without reference to their respective parliaments or people were to blame.

Although Britain, France and Germany were democratic , the people in charge did not think the people had any role in deciding foreign policy.

When people did start to influence foreign policy as in France and Britain in the 1930's we got appeasment because of the memories of WW1.

[notyoueither]

The Romanovs (not Russia). I can't blame a nation for the stupidity of a hereditary ruler who knew that mobilising against the Hapsburgs meant war with the Kaiser... and the dominoes kept falling.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by TheStinger
Foreign and Prime ministers who could decide policy on without reference to their respective parliaments or people were to blame.

Although Britain, France and Germany were democratic , the people in charge did not think the people had any role in deciding foreign policy.

When people did start to influence foreign policy as in France and Britain in the 1930's we got appeasment because of the memories of WW1.

Oh God - more bollocks.

The outbreak of war in 1914 was greeted with wild popular enthusiasm throughout Europe. There is even a photo which shows a young Adolf Hitler cheering the news in Vienna.

Parliaments were consulted on the outbreak of war. Even the German Social Democratic party, which might have been expected to oppose war, infamously voted for war credits.

So much for your theory

[Adalbertus]

Go and read Fischer's definitive book - you only need read the first 70 or so pages and a very good read too - very exciting. At every stage Germany is behind the scenes pushing for war.

AH, this is definitely only part of the truth. You also can lie by not telling everything. I've seen a French book, published several months before WWI, which was full of hatred and proving that the regions France lost 1871 were "genuinely French". In fact, the border between France and the Holy Roman Empire was quite constant along the Meuse over 500 years (the time the French kings needed to defeat their own dukes, including the one of Normandy). In 1552, France started the problems by occupying Metz, Toul and Verdun.
France was eager to go to war in 1914. As much as anyone else who participated.

[Alexander's Horse]

We talking about who caused the war. Germany caused the war.

[Frozzy]

The problem with World War 1 is that the trigger effect wasn't just in loyalty for they're allies. Imperialist countries just wanted more land overseas. If they could cut another imperialist down to size, so be it. You had allies in World Way One, but not because you liked them

[TheStinger]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


Oh God - more bollocks.

The outbreak of war in 1914 was greeted with wild popular enthusiasm throughout Europe. There is even a photo which shows a young Adolf Hitler cheering the news in Vienna.

Parliaments were consulted on the outbreak of war. Even the German Social Democratic party, which might have been expected to oppose war, infamously voted for war credits.

So much for your theory

Its not bollocks, people were spoon fed patriotic nonsense by their governments, media and in the UK's case the education system. Foreign policy was decided by the elite ruling class and people were conditioned to belive that all wars and other foreign adventures were good for the country.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
We talking about who caused the war. Germany caused the war.

Not many of merit in acedemia or other real scholars would support that conclusion. There have been many books.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Not many of merit in acedemia or other real scholars would support that conclusion. There have been many books.

What are you talking about? That IS the orthodox academic view you moron. Germany caused World War I.

[Tolls]

I actually went for Austria...

Germany was the direct cause of the war in July, no disputing that...but Austria was the one that completely ballsed up the political balance in 1908 by annexing Bosnia-Herzigovina, and in the process scrapping the 1878 treaty (Berlin?) that had at least sort of provided some stability in the Balkans. It was this that set in motion the train of events leading to the assassination of the Archduke (how many bombs did they have to throw at him?), which gave Germany the chance to egg Austria on...(is that torturous enough for everyone?)

Oh...the other reason I went for them was just to be awkward...and I was bored of always voting for Germany.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


What are you talking about? That IS the orthodox academic view you moron. Germany caused World War I.

Nice citation there.

[notyoueither]

Orthodox in 1934 maybe. You gotta get new text books down there.