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How long till Iraq is at war? What happens during it, and after?

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  • #76
    I'm short-sighted? And you think Saddam just flys airplanes himself and sprays DU and causes cancer, poisons water and food supplies etc.???


    Good old Uncle Sam put Saddam in power long time ago, while he obeyed you. As a matter of fact you feared another Iran and you'd rather have him and stop the spread of Islam.
    err... actually Saddam scratched and clawed his own way into power. The US has nothing to do with him becoming dictator. I dont like Saddam, but I dont underestimate his abilities, and neither should you.
    here is an ok source for a Saddam Bio, i just got it off the first thing on a google search:
    BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service


    However, the US did 'support' his regime early on because he was enemies with Iran, and as the old axiam goes, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. How would Saddam further the spread of ISlam, and why would America care? Islam is the fastest growing religion in our country and thats great. I think you are refering to radical Islam, and if that be the case, then again, we were choosing the lesser of two evils at the time.

    One of the ways CNN describbed backwardness under the Taliban regime was its maltreatment of women, who were beaten and forced to wear veils over their faces and were banned from education etc. Not a single change has happened under the new regime.
    Not a single change??? Again I question your news source. Mine is the BBC (they have such cool accents) and I have seen numerous stories on the betterment of so many peoples lives. Of course not everyone is happy, but no one ever is, and alot of people are upset or disappointed. But I am quite certain there have been significant changes for the better since the Taliban was deposed. To deny this is rediculous. Ill get some sources later, if you wish, but I havent the time presently.

    Have YOU ever lived under sanctions? I guess not so don't even think on basing an argument purely on that Saddam could divert more money in infrastructure when there is no way of making an income or importing essential goods. And the ways shipments of medicines for cancer and similar diseases has been banned because chemicals used in them could be turned into weapons makes me sick.
    No, I havent lived under sanctions.
    Let me ask you somethn. Are you aware of why there are sanctions on Iraq for such items as medicines??? Those sacntions were added after Saddam expelled the arms inspectors, because without the arms inspectors in the country there would be no way to keep tabs on Saddams WoMD manufacturing. This being a major threat to the US we have to hinder his progress as best as possible by denying him access to these products. It is very, very sad indeed. But it is ALL Saddams fault. He never had to kick the UN inspectors out, and he can always invite them back at anytime. But he doesnt cause he can care less about his own people and cares more about his precious WoMD.

    Because a trully democratic regime wouldn't care less about your interests and would not let its country be manipulated by corporate power. Plus placing another dictator wouldn't be the first time.
    Would care less about our interests, like say, Great Brittain or Japan or Canada or Austrailia,ets,ets ? Please. Our closest allies are democracies and they all care about Americas interests just like we care about theirs because this is an interconnected world. We are all on the same team. But if you wish to believe your fanciful little conspiracy theories of the evil corporate Americans then go right ahead.

    Though I can recall many occasions that the US has backed dictators, because, again, they were the lessor of two evils, I cannot recall a single time the US has deliberately placed a dictator in power.

    But AMAZINGLY, I can recall many, many times where we have set up democracies, and it has worked out in our best interests almost everytime, with the exception of a few. Such would include the Philopeans, Japan and Germany (two of some of the most prosperous nations today, may I add ), Cuba (that was ok for about 50 years, until the communists seized power), and alot more.

    quote:

    hmmm, lets try to blow things out of proportion just a little more, ok?



    Stating the facts in the way the rest of the civilized world sees it doesn't mean blowing things out of proportion.
    Well, if the rest of the world, at least in your opinion, blows things out of proportion, that doesnt mean its still not blowing things way out of proportion, its just doing it on a large scale

    I graciously said that the number of children that die each month is roughly the same as the number of civilians killed on 9/11. Not to mention the rest of the adult population. And their deaths are partically if not mostly caused by the US army. Yeah, radiation and cancer just happen out of poor standards of living, right?
    How are they caused by the US army?
    IIRC, 1 in 3 people will get cancer (at least in the US, i dunno if that is a world wide stat). Thats alot, and cancer happens almost regaurdless of the standard of living. Of course in more developed nations where there are restrictions on carcinoginic chemicals that helps make the cancer rates drop when compared to developing nations that use pesticides and such like DDT that has been long banned in many developed nations. Plus better water quality, etc helps too.
    I dont understand why you mention radiation?

    THAT IS A LOAD OF BLATTANT LIES I need only state that in Bosnia and Serbia (including Kosovo) cancer rates have soared since the "humanitarian" interventions. And any number of deaths by this way is inhumane IMO.
    The cancer rates have been soaring worldwide. There are thousands of factors that could explain this. It is ignorant to blame it on depleted Uranium ammunition. The former Yugoslavia, Im sure I dont have to remind you, is in relatively close proximity to Cherenobyle...
    If depleted uranium is so radioactive, then how do explain the normal occurance of cancer in the Tank crews of MI-A1 abrhams who work next to an entire cache of the stuff???

    Same exuses you use in every war you get involved in. When Yugoslavia was bombed, on the news there were claims that there were mass arsenaries of weapons in hospitals, schools and factories. I watched one NATO missile bomb video on how the bomb aproached a building that was a typical Belgrade block of flats - later on, the video was shown no more and no one uttered a word of its existence.
    Yeah, Im sure NATO bombed a hospital and school to destroy a weapons cache .
    You shouldnt forget, either, that the US is only one member of NATO...
    Im not denying that innocents died by the hand of NATO...but...no...you are right... we should of let the Serbs continue to ethnically clense thousands... what were we thinking???

    I read a report some while ago about an Iraqi family of shepherds who had a gathering in a valley, and they were bombed to bits by the US aircraft. Yeah, sheeps had uranium-rich wool I should think. Of course, this was never mentioned by the media.
    I read a report once that Elvis was spotted at the local seven-eleven...
    Ya know if this ever happened, AL JAzeera and countless anti-American publications around the world would of been all over it. But if one believes something so strongly, another can do nothing to change that.

    Kman
    Last edited by Kramerman; September 17, 2002, 03:09.
    "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
    - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
    Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

    Comment


    • #77
      This quote is for you Kramerman:
      "One Afghan, shown in battle fatigues, says of the treatment of prisoners in the Shibarghan camp: “I was a witness when an American soldier broke one prisoner’s neck and poured acid on others. The Americans did whatever they wanted. We had no power to stop them.”"
      Btw, you could also watch "The platoon" movie, if you think that your soldiers 'do not rape, pillage, plunder, or murder. '
      source, please...
      My mother always told me, 'do not believe everything you here.' Therefore I am always skeptical to some degree depending on the source of what I hear.
      If this was not recorded on tape or video, its most possible that it was made up all together by an anti-american publication. And if it was, im sure the guy who said he saw these things was anti-american himself and just wants to promote the feeling among his arab or Islamic peers. To say this would not be the first time is an understatement.

      As for the movie, I have seen it many times. the rule is that American soldiers dont do those things, but of course, every rule has an exception. If those crimes are reported a soldier can be courtmarshaled. In the remote Jungles of vietnam it would be hard to courtmarshal such a case successfully because of lack of evidence. Also the Vietnam war was VERY long, so the men had plenty of time to become sexually frustrated and be tempted to do such horrible things, especially after being desensitized by a tour of duty of hard fighting and combat. That is why those things happened. But I hope the movie wasnt misleading. Such incidents probably were few and far between. Most soldiers were able to relieve their sexual tension with whores.
      Anyway, any confrontaion in Iraq would be in close courters and would be relatively brief, compared to Vietnam. So I could garuntee no rape by American soldiers. Murder is hard to define in war, but in the sense of senseless slaughter of civilians, like something Mongols of Ghengis Kahn would do, Americans have never done such things and it is rediculous to think they would now.
      I think most are forgetting that it is in Americas best interest to win the hearts of the native population. American soldiers are great at this. Our soldiers are internationally reknowned for their generosity, since WWI to present that has been the case. All the local children know that the quickest source to chocolate is the nearest American soldier

      Kman
      "I bet Ikarus eats his own spunk..."
      - BLACKENED from America's Army: Operations
      Kramerman - Creator and Author of The Epic Tale of Navalon in the Civ III Stories Forum

      Comment


      • #78
        Serb, actually yes, I am very consistent in my libertarianism.
        Follow me on Twitter: http://twitter.com/DaveDaDouche
        Read my seldom updated blog where I talk to myself: http://davedadouche.blogspot.com/

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        • #79
          All the local children know that the quickest source to chocolate is the nearest American soldier
          It's a rather naive soldier indeed that hands out gifts to local kids. However nice it may seem to act like Mother Teresa, in no time your vehicle or mobile TOC or unit will be swamped with children all demanding crap from you. All while your trying to at least have some semblance of being tactical. Furthermore, you now have to watch to make sure that nothing gets stolen by the kids, and your now endangering the kids lives. No one in Kosovo(I assume it's the same elsewhere) with any common sense gives kids anything. This still doesn't stop them from congregating on your vehicle, but it at least discourages them.
          ku eshte shpata eshte feja
          Where the Sword is, There lies religion

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Serb
            I knew someday this link will be usefull. Have a nice reading DinoDoc:
            http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/ju...afgh-j17.shtml
            I know that being from Russia you may not know what an unbiased and credible news source is, so I'll cut you a little slack. I will however tell you that the World Socialist Web Site doesn't qualify.
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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            • #81
              Originally posted by DinoDoc
              I know that being from Russia you may not know what an unbiased and credible news source is, so I'll cut you a little slack. I will however tell you that the World Socialist Web Site doesn't qualify.
              he wouldn't......
              Read Blessed be the Peacemakers | Read Political Freedom | Read Pax Germania: A Story of Redemption | Read Unrelated Matters | Read Stains of Blood and Ash | Read Ripper: A Glimpse into the Life of Gen. Jack Sterling | Read Deutschland Erwachte! | Read The Best Friend | Read A Mothers Day Poem | Read Deliver us From Evil | Read The Promised Land

              Comment


              • #82
                [QUOTE] Originally posted by Kramerman





                err... actually Saddam scratched and clawed his own way into power. The US has nothing to do with him becoming dictator. I dont like Saddam, but I dont underestimate his abilities, and neither should you.
                here is an ok source for a Saddam Bio, i just got it off the first thing on a google search:
                BBC, News, BBC News, news online, world, uk, international, foreign, british, online, service


                However, the US did 'support' his regime early on because he was enemies with Iran, and as the old axiam goes, 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend'. How would Saddam further the spread of ISlam, and why would America care? Islam is the fastest growing religion in our country and thats great. I think you are refering to radical Islam, and if that be the case, then again, we were choosing the lesser of two evils at the time.


                Not a single change??? Again I question your news source. Mine is the BBC (they have such cool accents) and I have seen numerous stories on the betterment of so many peoples lives. Of course not everyone is happy, but no one ever is, and alot of people are upset or disappointed. But I am quite certain there have been significant changes for the better since the Taliban was deposed. To deny this is rediculous. Ill get some sources later, if you wish, but I havent the time presently.


                No, I havent lived under sanctions.
                Let me ask you somethn. Are you aware of why there are sanctions on Iraq for such items as medicines??? Those sacntions were added after Saddam expelled the arms inspectors, because without the arms inspectors in the country there would be no way to keep tabs on Saddams WoMD manufacturing. This being a major threat to the US we have to hinder his progress as best as possible by denying him access to these products. It is very, very sad indeed. But it is ALL Saddams fault. He never had to kick the UN inspectors out, and he can always invite them back at anytime. But he doesnt cause he can care less about his own people and cares more about his precious WoMD.



                Would care less about our interests, like say, Great Brittain or Japan or Canada or Austrailia,ets,ets ? Please. Our closest allies are democracies and they all care about Americas interests just like we care about theirs because this is an interconnected world. We are all on the same team. But if you wish to believe your fanciful little conspiracy theories of the evil corporate Americans then go right ahead.

                Though I can recall many occasions that the US has backed dictators, because, again, they were the lessor of two evils, I cannot recall a single time the US has deliberately placed a dictator in power.

                But AMAZINGLY, I can recall many, many times where we have set up democracies, and it has worked out in our best interests almost everytime, with the exception of a few. Such would include the Philopeans, Japan and Germany (two of some of the most prosperous nations today, may I add ), Cuba (that was ok for about 50 years, until the communists seized power), and alot more.


                Well, if the rest of the world, at least in your opinion, blows things out of proportion, that doesnt mean its still not blowing things way out of proportion, its just doing it on a large scale


                How are they caused by the US army?
                IIRC, 1 in 3 people will get cancer (at least in the US, i dunno if that is a world wide stat). Thats alot, and cancer happens almost regaurdless of the standard of living. Of course in more developed nations where there are restrictions on carcinoginic chemicals that helps make the cancer rates drop when compared to developing nations that use pesticides and such like DDT that has been long banned in many developed nations. Plus better water quality, etc helps too.
                I dont understand why you mention radiation?


                The cancer rates have been soaring worldwide. There are thousands of factors that could explain this. It is ignorant to blame it on depleted Uranium ammunition. The former Yugoslavia, Im sure I dont have to remind you, is in relatively close proximity to Cherenobyle...
                If depleted uranium is so radioactive, then how do explain the normal occurance of cancer in the Tank crews of MI-A1 abrhams who work next to an entire cache of the stuff???



                Yeah, Im sure NATO bombed a hospital and school to destroy a weapons cache .
                You shouldnt forget, either, that the US is only one member of NATO...
                Im not denying that innocents died by the hand of NATO...but...no...you are right... we should of let the Serbs continue to ethnically clense thousands... what were we thinking???



                I read a report once that Elvis was spotted at the local seven-eleven...
                Ya know if this ever happened, AL JAzeera and countless anti-American publications around the world would of been all over it. But if one believes something so strongly, another can do nothing to change that.

                Kman
                Kramerman, sorry if I rant too much but my life has created a wholly different world-view than your own. I am not saying this negatively nor positively but just stating this as an important factor which bases my opinions. I have lost friends that year (1999) and I do not hold much respect for your policy of fighting fire with fire.

                And I was thinking or radical Islam (I hope I didn't make too many enemies because of my previous post )

                Now that I look back, I don't see what kind of point I was trying to make about the Taliban... but I still think much time has to pass for things to trully change there.

                You cannot say that shipment of such neccessary things as medicines is entirerly Saddam's fault. This is ridiculous = people intentionally died for others' political aims. And by this I do not totally blame the West - he made a very stupid decision. But who the hell keeps tabs on you and your power? And now that you start scrapping every single treaty (such as Kyoto and the one about biological weapons, this was pre-2001) and even undermind UN.

                But if you wish to believe your fanciful little conspiracy theories of the evil corporate Americans then go right ahead.
                Of course I will! :nice: I have my reasons I'd rather not discuss - I am low on energy at the moment and do not wish to enter yet another row...

                How are they caused by the US army?
                IIRC, 1 in 3 people will get cancer (at least in the US, i dunno if that is a world wide stat). Thats alot, and cancer happens almost regaurdless of the standard of living. Of course in more developed nations where there are restrictions on carcinoginic chemicals that helps make the cancer rates drop when compared to developing nations that use pesticides and such like DDT that has been long banned in many developed nations. Plus better water quality, etc helps too.
                I dont understand why you mention radiation?

                The cancer rates have been soaring worldwide. There are thousands of factors that could explain this. It is ignorant to blame it on depleted Uranium ammunition. The former Yugoslavia, Im sure I dont have to remind you, is in relatively close proximity to Cherenobyle...
                If depleted uranium is so radioactive, then how do explain the normal occurance of cancer in the Tank crews of MI-A1 abrhams who work next to an entire cache of the stuff???
                sigh... If you rely on your BBC News you will see the huge figures of the British soldiers who recently started a row with their Department of Defence on the basis what damage DU has caused to them. Maybe this just slipped you.

                Also Chernobyl happened in 1986, and we were relativelly safelly protected from it. No abnormal change in cancer rates has happened until the Balkan wars.

                Please visit this relativelly unbiased site for more info on DU and see what UN says about the Balkans:



                And if it so "safe" to use, how come that western governments have suggested to help us clean p your mess? Please do not tell me you'd eat a vegetable grown in a field near where a DU shell exploded. Very humane and democratic.

                Yeah, Im sure NATO bombed a hospital and school to destroy a weapons cache .
                You shouldnt forget, either, that the US is only one member of NATO...
                Im not denying that innocents died by the hand of NATO...but...no...you are right... we should of let the Serbs continue to ethnically clense thousands... what were we thinking???
                Believe it or not, you did destroy hospitals and schools.
                Visit my sources (as i cannot upload personnal mempory to the computer):
                *http://www.bhhrg.org/serbia/serbia1999-3/wardamage.htm (assesment on war damage on Serbia in 1999)
                *http://www.iacenter.org/warcrime/8_health.htm (damage to Yugoslavia's health systems in 1999)
                *http://csf.colorado.edu/agfrank/nato.../msg00128.html (is it within law to bomb civilians)
                *http://www.hip-petrohemija.com/eng/history1.htm (a civilian factory which was a fundamental part of Northern Serbian economy, nothing to do with military)
                *http://www.converge.org.nz/pma/sbreach.htm (how NATO's war against Yugoslavia breached international law)

                You can find many many more sites, all pointing out the vast damage you caused, and no globalist views like the BBC

                And the US is not just a "one member of NATO" it is the central leader of the alliance with a permanent membership in the UN Security Council, not to mention with the biggest and most notorious war machinery in the world.
                Attached Files
                ... This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality...
                ... Pain is an illusion...

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                • #83
                  Jan 03 -- because it will be nice and cool for the poor grunts in the biochem warfare gear.
                  No, I did not steal that from somebody on Something Awful.

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