Any Christians out there?

[java4me]

Originally posted by ckweb

If you only converse with like-minded individuals, how are you stretched or encouraged to grow?

Yes, I do that in real life, and in private chat with others, but not forums, it just turns into a flame war and such...I prefer one on one...But that is how I like it!

[leftover_crack]

aye let me make an analagy about god. You can warn ants about the impending flood. you can scream and try all you want to convince them to move there ant hill up on the side of a hill. Does that mean they will listen? Do they understand? Of course not.. they dont even know we are there.


If you think you need to see and touch god to believe he exists. Then theres alot of other things you probably wouldnt believe in. Like Love..

For me evolution takes alot more faith than Creationism. The theory has lots of holes and would never float on its own. Then again so does creationism. But somthing like 92% of the worlds population believes in a higher power. And some half you figure probably would believe in some sort creationist story. I think its stupid. Both should be taught in schools.

Do I have the right thread?
hmm im going to be now

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by CyberShy


especially the bold part is the part where you can see he's making it up himself.

I'll reply more later, I have to go to eat

You look like you are just trying to turn a single word into an insult to avoid thinking.

I MADE UP NOTHING. I made a comment. Its obviously a comment by me. Its also true. You simply don't know what Fundamentalism in the US is or the way people have their own personal ideas about their god. Many don't go to any church yet are Fundamentalist and would say so.

The fact is Fundamentalists in the US are often POLITICALY orginized and not organized by denomination. They are trying to force Creationism into the US school system. Thats politcal and it started in the late 1800's apparently in reaction to Darwin.

Want to know what it was like? Rent Inherit the Wind. Great film. Based on the Scopes Monky trail. Thinly disguised with a mere few name changes. William Jennings Bryan becomes Matthew Harrison Brady. Even has the same rythm to the name.

If you really aren't a fundamentalist you are going to have to expect confusion because most Creationist ARE fundamentalists. Its not an insult. Even if you insist on pretending that is one.

I am pretty sure I never even called you fundamentalist in this thread. You chose to turn into something personal. Not me. YOU.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by leftover_crack
For me evolution takes alot more faith than Creationism. The theory has lots of holes and would never float on its own. Then again so does creationism. But somthing like 92% of the worlds population believes in a higher power. And some half you figure probably would believe in some sort creationist story. I think its stupid. Both should be taught in schools.

Only evolution should be taught in schools. Only evolution has real evidence supporting it. Creationism is a purely religious concept. It has no basis in physical evidence. The only place Creationism has in schools is in a theology class or a comparitive religions class.

Saying evolution has holes is stating the obvious but only in the sense that we do not and cannot know every detail of every lifeform on Earth. However we CAN

Calculate the age of the Earth. Its billions not thousands.

See the progression of life forms in the stratified layers of sediment. Some species are better represented then others and only those that have a LOT of fossils over long periods of time are going to show the details of that species evolution. That however is more than enough to show it is real.

Test evolution in the lab with bacteria and other short lived simple animals that allow us to see changes in timeframes that are less than geological.

Most likely nearly everything you know about evolution you got from Creationist sites. That is certainly the case for Cybershy because that is where he has gotten everything he has posted in any thread on evolution. He simply doesn't understand evolution at all and doesn't want to because it goes against his beliefs.

[Robert]

Well, if that's the case, why do you call me a fundamentalist? I do not match any of the things you mentioned above.....!

1. I don't think creationism should be teached at schools. It's up to the schools themselves.
2. eventhough I disagree with most abortions, I would never treat anybody who performed an abortion or was aborted in a negative way because of that.
3. I think christianity should not be political. It's a personal thing you can't lay on people from above. Nor can you put the christian moral on people from the top.

I know what american fundamentalists are,
and I know that I'm not one of them. Please understand that europe is totally different than the states.

We have right-wing gays here.
We have left-wing creationists

I do believe God created heaven and earth. I believe the flood happened. That doesn't make me a fundamentalist.

Fundamentalists might believe in creation, that doesn't mean that everybody who believes in creation is a fundamentalist.

White people are homo sapiens, not all homo sapiens are white.

I believe God created the world, pherhaps he did it through evolution. (of course the billions of years are not nescecary since God's perfect 'natural selection' will speed things up)

Let's please continue our discussion in a mature equal way. We might disagree, but we can talk and debate about it.

thanks,
CyberShy

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by ckweb

. This is part of the point I am trying to make with Ethelred.

The point I am trying to make to you is that still leaves the Bible in the same class as other writings about gods that also have real history mixed in. I chose the Norse gods and legends as an example which is real legend and real myths created by real societies and for your example you chose a religion that we both know is NOT at all similar to the Bible or Norse myths and legends for the simple reason that one man made the whole thing up. Even if millions of Mormons are in denial. Which helps support me by the way. They believe just as strongly as you or Cybershy or Lars even though it so patently fraudulent that its ridiculous.

Reality is not needed for people to believe. Only belief. Faith is often misplaced. As far as I can see ALL religions are based on misplaced faith.

When someone shows real evidence of Thor or Jehovah then those extraordinary, either of them, will have some backing. Ordinary history cannot support claims of gods or else you would have to accept Thor as just as probable as Jehovah. Then again I think Thor IS just as probable as Jehovah. Not very.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by ckweb


I do agree, however, that Ethelred is often condescending in his dismissive attitude towards the Judeo-Christian conception of God. He doesn't share loinburger's more "live and let live" attitude. Loinburger's attitude conveys a greater sense of mutual respect, I think.

I live and let live. This is a discusion forum. If someone actually wants to start discussing instead of DISSING again let me know.

I didn't attack Lars yet he attacked me. He quoted the Bible AT me not to discuss but in a vain effort to intimidate. Vain because any intimidation required a belief in his god. That is what made that particular passage in that particular conext nonsense.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by AnnC
Still evading the need for repentance, I see.

You should be more specific. Who?

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by jimmytrick


I can't provide evidence. If you want it you have to seek the face of God. I am sorry if you don't like that statement. I am not trying to offend.

But Jimmy the Bible has assured me that I cannot see the face of god. That no one can.

Then again it has Abraham seeing the face of god.

As for you statement that Christianity is not based on spiritual contact, I disagree. Most of the people who identify themselves as Christians are probably not spiritual. I have seen scores of people converted with no more meaning than joining a social club.

Spiritual is not the same as being Christian. Jimmy. Following the teachings of Jesus is by definition Christian.

But I hold to a real, risen Christ, a person, not a title, salvation not legend. This is based on my spritual experiences. They can have no meaning for you other than my declaration and testimony that God exists.

I don't have a problem with that Jimmy. I just don't agree and can see no reason to. Its all faith and I do not go faith. Watch someone tell some fairy story about evolution needing faith. I can see the fossils. I can even see the effects of electron although I cannot see the electrons themselves.

There was a series on PBS call How We Know What We Know. Its not faith. We CAN know about things that we cannot directly experience. We just look for the evidence that is left behind.

Try showing where even one Creationist has tried to produce REAL evidence to support Creationism. They spend almost their entire effort in trying obfuscate biology, geology, and anyother life science that shows either evolution or an old Earth. For evidence of a Flood the best they manage is to do things like claim the Grand Canyon is evidence when it clearly is not.

I am not saying that is you Jimmy. I am simply giving it as an example of what passes for evidence to support the claims of divinity in the Bible.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by jimmytrick
Ethelred,

Would you be open to the possibility that the Bible cannot be understood without the Holy Spirit? Are you open to the possibility that the spiritual world might exist?

Not without evidence. Its possible but not probable. Its up to the Holy Spirit in that case to contact me. Preferably in more credible way than spriritualist contact the dead.

I am sure an all powerful god could manage that. It is bogus to claim I would not believe if Jehovah stood on my foot as someone here did. Now if Jehovah insisted on behaving exactly like a normal human being than yes I would not be convinced. Its not up to me. I have looked for evidence and requested it. I have seen none that is credible.

You know some people do claim that you must believe in spriritualist to see the ghosts. You are sounding just like them and so far they are all frauds.

Yes it is possible that there is something spritual but from what I see christian spiritualism looks remarkably similar to anyother form of spirtualism. Without physical evidence their is no way to tell which is the real manifestion and which is just a figament of a strong imagination.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by CyberShy
Well, if that's the case, why do you call me a fundamentalist? I do not match any of the things you mentioned above.....!

I didn't call you one in this thread did I? In any case you are a creationist.

1. I don't think creationism should be teached at schools. It's up to the schools themselves.

Not in public schools.

2. eventhough I disagree with most abortions, I would never treat anybody who performed an abortion or was aborted in a negative way because of that.

Where did that come from? Abortion has nothing to do with this discusion and is no way a purely Fundamentalist or even religious issue.

3. I think christianity should not be political. It's a personal thing you can't lay on people from above. Nor can you put the christian moral on people from the top.

What has that to do with having Fundamentalist beliefs. You don't have to be political to be a Fundamentalist. Its just that a lot are.

I know what american fundamentalists are,
and I know that I'm not one of them. Please understand that europe is totally different than the states.

Please understand that Fundmentalism is an English word. Europe is NOT totally diferent either. I am guessing you are mixing up Fundamenalist Moslems with Fundamentalist Christians and deciding that word is an insult. While I certainaly wouldn't want to be a Fundamentalist and don't understand why inteligent educated people choose to be one I am aware that some do.

We have right-wing gays here.

I have news for you. There is a gay Republican in Congress.

We have left-wing creationists

So does the US. Just a lower percentage.

I do believe God created heaven and earth. I believe the flood happened. That doesn't make me a fundamentalist.

Actualy it nearly does. You pretty much have to believe in fairly literal interpretation of the Bible to believe in the Flood and a number of things I suspect that you also believe. And that is what a Fundamentalist is. I cannot help it if you don't like the term. I don't like the term New Age Music but nevertheless Mike Oldfield's Tubular Bells is New Age Music much to his and my dismay. Not exactly a perfect example since New Age has a very different meaning outside of music.

Fundamentalists might believe in creation, that doesn't mean that everybody who believes in creation is a fundamentalist.

Depends on the kind of Creation you believe. There are old Earth Creationists that are definitly Fundamentalists. They still mostly believe in a world wide flood. Some try to hedge their bets on that but there is still the Tower of Bable story and that too is impossible as it is written in the Bible. At least in the English versions.

White people are homo sapiens, not all homo sapiens are white.

Not ALL Creationists are Fundamentalists. But almost all are. Those are not the ones that believe in the Flood though.

I believe God created the world, pherhaps he did it through evolution. (of course the billions of years are not nescecary since God's perfect 'natural selection' will speed things up)

Sounds like a dodge to avoid admitting that the Earth is billions of years old. Maybe not but its ambiguous enough for that.

Let's please continue our discussion in a mature equal way. We might disagree, but we can talk and debate about it.

thanks,
CyberShy

I have been trying. I have had MANY discussions on religion and evolution without them descending into flame wars. I am fully capable of that. If I call something nonsense that IS NOT AN INSULT. Its a disagreement. Its up the other person to show that it not nonsense rather than pitch a hissy fit as has been the frequent case around here lately.

[TheStinger]

Is God trying to trick people by creating scientific evidence contrary to the Bible, if he is that doesn't seem the sought of behaviour of someone i would want to worship.

[Robert]

Fundamentalism is a dutch word as well. (fundamentalisme)

[loinburger]

Originally posted by ckweb
He doesn't share loinburger's more "live and let live" attitude.

I generally don't have any problem with religion, because even though I don't see the relevance of spiritual matters I also don't see the harm in others seeing relevance where I do not. It's kinda like my opinion on art: I usually get bored in art galleries (because I find most sculptures/paintings to be uninspiring or obnoxious or whatever have you), but that doesn't mean that I want to outlaw art or destroy art or anything like that. If somebody else thinks that the Mona Lisa is a brilliant painting, and I think that it's just a rather dull picture of a moderately attractive woman, then so what? There's no harm in either of us trying to convince the other that our opinion is better, so long as we also realize that there's also no real harm in reaching an impasse.

The only firmly held opinion I've got with regards to religion is that religion should not be somebody's sole source (or even primary source) of ethical laws/wisdom. Since spiritual opinions are quite subjective, they ought not to encroach on ethics lest ethics also begin to suffer from extreme subjectivity/relativity (and lest adherents to different spiritual beliefs begin to suffer from communication breakdown, e.g. as seems to have happened to some extent with Troll and me). That's why I've got no problem with others adhering to a different religious belief than I do, unless they start threatening me with hellfire (or advocating the hatred of some other group, e.g. Jews or homosexuals or whatever have you). When somebody's religious beliefs begin to impede upon their ethics, then their religious beliefs begin to grow destructive.

[Urban Ranger]

Oh man, this thing has been going on for ages.