Regime change

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by Joe R. Golowka


This has nothing to do with Democracy

I agree 100%. Who ever said that "democaracy" was the way to go.

At one time, democarcy in the southern United States meant segragation.

[Deity Dude stops before he lists 1000's of examples where democracy would have come up with the totally wrong solution. But one more just for fun]

100 rapists and 99 beautiful women are stranded on a desert island.

I call for the vote:

Should non-consensual intercourse between males and females be allowed.

The results

100 - Yes
99 - No

It is passed. Non-consensual intercourse is allowed.

The Minister of Rapists was later quoted as saying "See how progressive we are. We are a democracy that supposrts women. In fact, in our last referendum "The Freedom To Choose Sex Act" we had a 100% turnout amongst female voters"

[Ned]

Or, Diety Dude, three tribemen vote on the issue of whether they all should share a pig owned by one of them. The vote is 2-1 to share the pig, and democracy is born.

Or better, Mayor Daley, the Archbishop and the Police Chief are stranded in a Mayor Daley's rowboat without paddles in the middle of Lake Michigan. Daley wants to paddle the boat towards shore because he has no faith in being rescued, the Archbishop wants to stay where they are and wait for divine intervention, and the Police Chief is undecided. Reaching no consensus, they decide to vote. Mayor Daley wins 7-2.

[Joe R. Golowka]

Originally posted by Ned
Those of you who opine negatively on Bush seem to me to be living in some kind of bizzare fantasy world.

No, that would be the world portrayed by mainstream US media where the US is a "shining beacon of democracy" and the rest of the world just hates freedom. Try reading foreign press for a while; reality is a bit different.

There are really evil people out there who mean us harm.

Yeah, and Bush is one of them.

For example, Saudi Arabia is a leading promoter of terrorism.

Yep, and so is America. Remember who backed Bin Laden in the '80s?

But Bush and the Saudi's get along just fine, thank you.

Of course they are, the Saudis have tons of oil. The US government doesn't care about things like "democracy" or human rights; that's just propaganda for the masses. The actual goals of foreign policy are to keep the US on top and enrich US businesses.

Perhaps Bush has a plan for the Saudi's, but many of us do not like coddling terrorist regimes.

The United States IS a terrorist regime.

[Ned]

Joe, We Americans a building a list. What country are you from?

[Kepler]

> The US government doesn't care about things like "democracy" or human rights; that's just propaganda for the masses. The actual goals of foreign policy are to keep the US on top and enrich US businesses.


I know this a quaint notion, but the US government is, albeit strained through several unethical layers, its people. Certainly, there are strong elements within our government that care primarily about increasing American wealth, but I think most of us feel that we're wealthy enough as it is relative to the rest of the world. We actually care a lot more about human rights and democratic values than you might think.

What cheeses us off enough to take our eyes off sitcoms for more than five minutes is when people fly explosives into the shiny metal and glass boxes where we work. And even then, a lot of us are debating limiting the actions we feel comfortable taking, and a lot of us are looking closely at the sort of regimes we call our "friends."

So while the dominant world power is always going to be an inviting pin cushion, note that when you say "US government" -- even in the current instance of an executive without even a plurality, let alone a majority, of voters behind him -- you are ultimately talking about people -- me and the rest of the US electorate. And we're a lot nicer than you think. Really.

[spartak]

Originally posted by Fez


I have a damn right to denounce what I want.

And I have a right to point out that you are spouting crap.

Oh now you want to insult my intelligence? Not the first time one of sh*ts have done this here. Give me a break please.

I insulted your debating style not your intelligence. debates are won on an intellectual level not by hoocking your mouth to your emotions and spouting illogical crap.

I lost my cool? Since when? And who gives you the right to push things down my throat which I didn't say or do.

Grow up Fez. Of course you lost it - you reduced yourself to denouncing my argument instead of discussing it. Emotion over intellect again.

Maybe you should stop talking about yourself.

I don't understand that point fez. Thgen again you often don't make sense.

[spartak]

Originally posted by Ned


Spartak, For years we propped up corrupt dictatorships, hated by their people, in the name of stability. We ignored fundamental justice issues and the rights of people to self-determination. All this brought us is hatred of the people of the countries involved.

I say no more of that cr#p. We, the United States, have to stand for democracy, for human rights and for liberty. We owe it to ourselves and to the world to rid the world of monsters like Saddam, particularly if they have a track record of crimes against humanity and aggressive war. Saddam was once our puppet. Now, like Noriega, he is our enemy and the people of Iraq suffer.

To hear the Kurd and Shi'ite leaders speak of hope of salvation with the help of America is to know that our cause is just.

The instability you speak of is the liberation of the Kurds and Shi'ites from oppression. This may signal the oppressed Kurds in Syria, Turkey, Iran and the oppressed Shi'ites in Saudi Arabia to rise up against corrupt dictatorships and themselves seek freedom. I say - go for it.

Ned - Turkey is an important ally of the US from cold war days and has one of the largest armies in the world. You do realise you just advocated the US stirring up a revolution in a fellow NATO country?

Have you ever heard of the Black Sea or Bosphoros? Why do you think Europe is so keen to get involved in the Balkans (look at a map if you don't know about the proximity)



Do you see that thin bit of water? Most of Russia's Oil passes through that stretch of water. What exactly would destroying stability in Turkey do for that vital oil link?

You were aware that part of the reasoning for removing the Taliban was to restart plans to build a ****ing great big pipeline between Russia and Iran to reduce the pressure on the Black Sea routes?

Democracy and Freedom - great ideas but the effect of destroying the world economy would be worse than the effect of the Great depression in the 1930's - remember a nice man called Adolph Hitler? He was only able to come to power because the Weimar Republic failed during the depression.... We can well do without that.



More info on the Bosphorus HERE

[spartak]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Only the overthrow of the despotic Ming will aid the cause of peace!

[Sprayber]

Reading this thread makes me think of the quote from Billy Madison

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Fez


Help fixing what is screwed up with their heads.

Fez, as all of your posts on this forum have indicated, you are the King of being screwed up in the head. You've even admitted it yourself, Mr. Dazed and Confused.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spartak
You were aware that part of the reasoning for removing the Taliban was to restart plans to build a ****ing great big pipeline between Russia and Iran to reduce the pressure on the Black Sea routes?

I thought that opening up Afghanistan to a pipeline would remove the need to build it through Iran.

[spartak]

I understood there were two options being looked at - 1 pipeline through Iran and one through Afghanistan both aiming for the Red Sea. Happy to be corrected on the detail but I don't think it alters the point I was making....

[Combat Ingrid]

Doesn't the oil come from the Caspian Sea area? In that case, I can't see why Afghanistan would be so important, except for the regional stability, of course.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Spartak
I don't think it alters the point I was making....

It doesn't. I was just curious if I was correct or not.

[Pekka]

First I thought about voting Bush, just because he has way more power and capability and influence. But then again, Saddam is not so powerless either. I'd be very disappointed if Saddam stayed and Bush had to leave.
Although I'm not the biggest fan of Dubya, I'd have to go with Saddam. There would be something fundamentally wrong if Saddam didn't have to leave.

He's far more evil than Bush, is it his fault he has less power? I say let's see this Saddam guy gone way before anyone else. I'd rather see a democrat in the lead, but before that many others has to go!
At least it's not in Dubyas goals to kill many people, maybe it comes as a result for reaching better economy, I don't know, but Saddam wants to kill, destroy, and would do it in a blink of an eye if he had the chance.