Regime change

[spartak]

I did you the courtesy of explaining my reasoning and you resort to wild defamatory accusations and simply denouncing it as false reasoning. Says a lot for your inability to deal with anything on an intellectual rather than emotional level. Its also very childish. Did you know that as soon as you lose your cool in a debate you lose the argument? Well you just lost yours buster.

Fez -

When you are ready to act like an adult you might find you get along better with others.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Spartak
Fez and Ned - Cool It willya. Use some logic - despite Sept 11 the USA is not universally popular and is picking up a reputation as an international bullyboy. Now why might that be? Well perhaps because the US is turning into an international bullyboy. Is this good for the world? No. Is this good for the US? Hmm in the shorterm probably but in the longer term? No.

Explain to me how supporting ther Israelis against the Palestinians is helping the cause of middle-east peace? Or perhaps how removing Saddam (settling old scores is a more accurate description of this) is going to help the US in the longer term? Toppling Saddam will undoubtedly lead to greater instability in the middle-east and I'm not sure that places like Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, Iraq & Syria need a popular upsurge of Islamic brotherly feeling right now. In case you hadn't noticed, the middle-east going up in flames would totally wreck the supply of oil to the west and when that happens - bye-bye world economy.

Now I realise that a lot of Americans struggle to see a longer view but surely anyone who attempts any meaningful analysis of the situation in the middle-east right now must see that what isn't needed right now is greater instability or anything that might lead to uprisings and an uopswell fo islamism in unstable countries which currently have (nominally) pro-western governments.

This doesn't mean that saddam is good but try and see things from a wider perspective that just 'ol "USA USA"! Bush's attempts to remove Saddam is not only potentially ruinous to us all, but is squandering all that pro-US feeling that the atrocities of Sept 11 caused.

Two wrongs do not make it right.....

Spartak, For years we propped up corrupt dictatorships, hated by their people, in the name of stability. We ignored fundamental justice issues and the rights of people to self-determination. All this brought us is hatred of the people of the countries involved.

I say no more of that cr#p. We, the United States, have to stand for democracy, for human rights and for liberty. We owe it to ourselves and to the world to rid the world of monsters like Saddam, particularly if they have a track record of crimes against humanity and aggressive war. Saddam was once our puppet. Now, like Noriega, he is our enemy and the people of Iraq suffer.

To hear the Kurd and Shi'ite leaders speak of hope of salvation with the help of America is to know that our cause is just.

The instability you speak of is the liberation of the Kurds and Shi'ites from oppression. This may signal the oppressed Kurds in Syria, Turkey, Iran and the oppressed Shi'ites in Saudi Arabia to rise up against corrupt dictatorships and themselves seek freedom. I say - go for it.

[Inverse Icarus]

i thought this thread was goign to be for the upheaval of MarkG and his minions. now i'm all sad again.

::sigh::

[DinoDoc]

Only the overthrow of the despotic Ming will aid the cause of peace!

[Carver]

Originally posted by Ned
To hear the Kurd and Shi'ite leaders speak of hope of salvation with the help of America is to know that our cause is just.

No it isn't. The Kurdish leaders are the same as all the other "exiled" Iraqi opposition leaders: they're a bunch of power hungry fools that want to fly into Baghdad on a magic carpet provided by the USAF and become the new dictators of Iraq replacing Saddam.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Spartak
I did you the courtesy of explaining my reasoning and you resort to wild defamatory accusations and simply denouncing it as false reasoning.

I have a damn right to denounce what I want.

Says a lot for your inability to deal with anything on an intellectual rather than emotional level.

Oh now you want to insult my intelligence? Not the first time one of sh*ts have done this here. Give me a break please.

Its also very childish. Did you know that as soon as you lose your cool in a debate you lose the argument? Well you just lost yours buster.

I lost my cool? Since when? And who gives you the right to push things down my throat which I didn't say or do.

When you are ready to act like an adult you might find you get along better with others.

Maybe you should stop talking about yourself.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Carver


No it isn't. The Kurdish leaders are the same as all the other "exiled" Iraqi opposition leaders: they're a bunch of power hungry fools that want to fly into Baghdad on a magic carpet provided by the USAF and become the new dictators of Iraq replacing Saddam.

Really, Carver? Why do you say that? AFAIK, these people want liberation and democracy, not their own dictatorship. If the latter was their agenda, I would agree that we should leave well enough alone. But, look what happened in Afghanistan. We have the beginnings there of true democratic government according to Afghan ancient traditions. Some warlords may want total power over the others; but with Nato forces in place, this is unlikely to happen. Democracy will prevail.

So will democracy in Iraq - the US and most likely Britain will be there to help in the transition.

[Sandman]

I voted Bush. The American people deserve better than this oaf.

[Giancarlo]

[DinoDoc]

Out of curiosity, who was the last Republican president that Europe liked?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Sandman
I voted Bush. The American people deserve better than this oaf.

OK, I know what I don't like about Bush: Steel Tarriffs, Farm Subsidies; coddling Saudi Arabia, and for a time, giving some respect to Arafat,

What's your beef?

[Lord Merciless]

The Euros said the same thing about Reagon back then...

They love JFK, Carter, and Clinton.

[JCG]

You want the real bloody answer?

Kill Bin Laden, Kill this Iranian guy, kill Saddam, kill GWB, kill Musharaf, kill this Bielorussian guy, kill this korean Kim Il guy, kill a bunch of African guys, kill this Saudi Arabian guy, kill Arafat, kill Sharon and err...kill Al Gore.

World peace achieved through death, I suppose.

[Deity Dude]

Hmmmm

28 Bush
21 Saddam

Now I understand the wisdom of the American forefathers when they made the country a Republic instead of a Democracy.

[Joe R. Golowka]

Originally posted by Ned
All this brought us is hatred of the people of the countries involved.

It brought us Oil and funded the military industrial complex.

I say no more of that cr#p. We, the United States, have to stand for democracy, for human rights and for liberty. We owe it to ourselves and to the world to rid the world of monsters like Saddam, particularly if they have a track record of crimes against humanity and aggressive war. Saddam was once our puppet.

This has nothing to do with Democracy, Ned. If Bush gave a rat's ass about democracy he wouldn't be backing the Saudi Monarchy, Turkmenistan, Mushariff, the Kuwaiti Monarchy, or a bunch of other repressive regimes. This is about oil (and to a lesser extent feeding the military industrial complex). Like you said, Sadaam used to be our puppet then he disobeyed orders & invaded Kuwait (also a puppet). Now Washington is getting tired of the standoff and wants to put a puppet back in charge of Iraq. Bush will call the new regime a democracy but it'll actually be another puppet state. Promoting democracy is a fine idea; the most effective thing we can do to promote it is to stop supporting dictatorships.