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  • #46
    Originally posted by DanS
    "and if they were here legally they would be paying federal income taxes."

    No they wouldn't. They don't make enough money. As I stated, only about half of workers pay federal income taxes.
    I misunderstood. When you said "workers" I thought you were only referring to illegal immigrant workers when you seem to be referring to legal workers.
    "Are you referring to receiving SS when you get old? SS will be bankrupt before I get old enough to benefit from it."

    There are lots of other benefits. Like disability benefits and death benefits for dependants.
    Why cant we set up a guest worker program that enables us to have them working here legally without giving them those benefits?
    "You do realize that by granting amnesty to all illegal immigrants in the US you would also be granting amnesty to members of Al Qaeda who live here don't you?"

    Why would this be so? I propose that we spend a lot more in background checks for prospective citizens.
    So you would only grant amnesty after extensive background checks on every illegal? Doesnt sound economically feasable when you are talking about millions of people. It would be cheaper to deport them.
    ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
    ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

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    • #47
      "Wouldn't setting up a guest worker program rather than mass amnesty be more politically palatable at this point in time? It would also have the advantage of avoiding insulting the people who immigrated legally."

      Aha!!! Thank you for moving the ball forward, Dino.

      It would be more politically palatable, but I would not want any part of it. The main reason is that I would rather them be permanent Americans rather than guest workers who are Mexicans.

      It's a matter of social investment and influence. Re investment, we want these people to be fully invested in the communities in which they live and work. Re influence, we want their kids to speak English and be snot nosed American mallrats.

      Realize that Pres. Fox does not want this. He will be pushing the guest worker program. What is 4% of our population is 10% of his! Bush, if he knows what's good for him, will push for amnesty.

      In the long term, I do not want a two-tiered society of citizens versus guest workers. This is the way it is in places like Hong Kong, for instance. The guest worker program we have now is modestly sized and is geared toward pushing these people toward citizenship after a couple of years. This is generally thought to be very good, because they are generally high skilled. But I don't see much of a difference between high skilled and low skilled--the U.S. benefits greatly from all immigration.
      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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      • #48
        Living in one of the epicenters of illegal immigration I've had the chance to read more then a few op ed articles on the subject. The concensus is that the federal government does alright with tax revenue from illegals (alright but still less then legal immigrants) however the state and local governments loss their shirts. What makes it so outrageous is that nearly all of the services the illegals use are payed by the state and local government while the fed effectively has washed their hands of situation.

        Unemployment benifits, subsized housing for the poor, AFDC, food stamps, education, and health care at free clinics are all payed for by the state house or city hall. All of these things are expensive items that illegals get for free but don't pay nearly enough taxes to pay for.

        Take for example public education. The L.A. times has stated that 50% of all children in L.A. unified are either illegal or the children of illegals. Very few of these children speak English so expensive bilingual education (these is the PC term for Spanish instruction 90% of the day with an hour long class on English; BTW most "bilingual education" kids graduate 12 years of school and still can't speak English) becomes necissary and most of the children also require remedial classes in just about every subject. Again this is terribly expensive and illegals contribute almost nothing to paying for these services so citizens and legal visa holders must work even harder to make up for these law breaking free loaders.
        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

        Comment

        • #49
          Originally posted by DanS
          Re influence, we want their kids to speak English
          That's another debate altogether.

          Realize that Pres. Fox does not want this. He will be pushing the guest worker program. What is 4% of our population is 10% of his! Bush, if he knows what's good for him, will push for amnesty.
          9/11 changed the political dynamics on this issue, Dan. There is good reason to think that Bush was moving toward granting mass amnesty, if only for the potential political benefits it could give the Republican party. However, I don't foresee Bush spending political capital on an issue he is very likely to loose on.
          I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
          For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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          • #50
            "9/11 changed the political dynamics on this issue, Dan. "

            Perhaps so, Dino. I have been watching...

            "That's another debate altogether."

            You omitted the ellipse, damn you! I think they could all be wrapped into one.

            "Why not fill those jobs with unemployed citizens?"

            Good question, nationalist. Full employment is between 4 and 5%. When in between those numbers, employees have ample pricing power and can hop jobs when they want to. When it drops below 4%, you can't even get your fvcking garbage picked up and everybody has a title.

            We are now at 5.9% unemployment including illegals.
            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

            Comment

            • #51
              "Very few of these children speak English so expensive bilingual education (these is the PC term for Spanish instruction 90% of the day with an hour long class on English; BTW most "bilingual education" kids graduate 12 years of school and still can't speak English) becomes necissary and most of the children also require remedial classes in just about every subject."

              Thought y'all passed a referendum against this a couple of years ago.
              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

              Comment

              • #52
                We passed the law but special interests have tied it up in the courts ever since. Can you believe these "activists" claim that it is a human right to have Spanish only instruction in American schools? How the hell do they expect these kids to get jobs in the US if they can't even speak the national language?

                It's just another example of special interests playing political football with education while the kids turn out the big losers.
                Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                Comment

                • #53
                  Originally posted by Oerdin
                  Once you give amnisty to current illegal migrants you will find the new migrants won't believe us when we tell them they have to follow the legal visa process; they will no doubt, correctly, assume that another amnisty will be offered once the number of illegals in the country gets high enough.
                  And they would be correct since that has ALREADY happened. If this happens it will not the first immigration ammnesty.

                  Comment

                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Ethelred
                    And they would be correct since that has ALREADY happened. If this happens it will not the first immigration ammnesty.
                    Right you are my friend. I despise that we have rewarded people for breaking the law.
                    Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

                    Comment

                    • #55
                      Right you are my friend. I despise that we have rewarded people for breaking the law.
                      Well we're rewarding people who've worked hard for years for **** pay and no social services and who's only crime is exactly that. Doesn't seem so bad for me, especially my and probably your ancestors went through the same **** that every new wave of emigrants gets coming into the states.
                      Stop Quoting Ben

                      Comment

                      • #56
                        Actually Boshko my ancestors took the time to fill out the legal forms, wait in line, and abided by every law this country had. My Father's family did this even though in 1946 it was very hard to get a visa to move from Scotland to California and they were turned down on their first two tries. So yes I am angry that some persons can simply flaunt the laws, sneak across the border in the dead of night, and then be absolved of their crimes while the rest of us had to play by the rules.

                        As for the only crime these people commited being to work hard. How about entering the United States without a valid visa, failing to pass a legal customs inspection, using false documents & false social security numbers, evading taxes, and (if my own experience seeing people running across a 10 lane freeway to escape from prosueing border patrol agents is any indication) resisting arrest from a lawful peace officers of the United States. BTW that last one is a felony.

                        It is nice that these people have decided not to become repet offenders and have ceased commiting crimes, however, the fact remains that they did commit crimes and thus they are criminals.
                        Last edited by Dinner; August 6, 2002, 21:13.
                        Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.

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                        • #57
                          Oerdin: You're pretty harsh, man. The fact that they broke the law is important, but you are whining about a situation that benefits you economically on a net basis. Not only are they being rewarded for breaking the law, but you are too for them breaking the law.

                          Look, immigration is a necessary part of the American way of life. Our economy creates jobs faster than we can bring them in the door. But the political reality means that we have laws that purposely ignore this fact. Because we can't get our sh!t together politically on the issue, we have illegals.

                          President for a day time. What would you do in this political climate to eliminate illegals, while not harming the economy? Make sure to remember the splits in your own party over the issue, the national security considerations, and that Tyson Foods supports a good number of well paying jobs!
                          Last edited by DanS; August 6, 2002, 22:29.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment

                          • #58
                            Dan S

                            Maintaining the integrity of a nation's rule of law is more important to a nation's longterm survival than the strength of its economy.
                            "The great rule of conduct for us in regard to foreign nations is to have with them as little political connection as possible... It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far as we are now at liberty to do it." George Washington- September 19, 1796

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                            • #59
                              They broke a supremely unjust law, so we should deport them.

                              Hitler or Stalin would enjoy having y'all as citizens.
                              "Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
                              -Bokonon

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                              • #60
                                nationalist: I'm not going to buy into your either-or scenario. We hire our politicians to give us both. Believe it or not, I expect them to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
                                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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