Just Naturalize Them Already

[DanS]

Ramo: No, the laws aren't supremely unjust. However, they don't work, which creates some dilemmas of justice.

[Ramo]

They are supremely unjust (even if they worked as they supposedly were intended to). They prevent people whom the state deems useless (i.e. the poor or uneducated) from getting a better life for themselves and their families.

[DanS]

Your posts imply that you think all immigration controls are unjust. Is this true?

[DinoDoc]

Yes. It goes hand in hand with his beliefs in anarchy.

[Ramo]

Absolutely, Dan.

[DanS]

Interesting. That is not a view widely shared, I'm sure you understand.

[Narck]

Ummm.. interesting perspectives here...

As I see it, the United States is at the very least mildly dependent on illegal immigrants performing grunt work no American or legal immigrant wants to do. They may not pay taxes, but they're extremely poor anyway, and the poor are not where we get most of our tax revenue from, so no big loss there..

Illegal immigrants should not be deported, it will cause many problems in our economy, because there are just too many of them and we depend heavily on their labor.

Of course, if they ARE deported, the cost of labor will rise, because the unemployment rate will be lower, and any people actually willing to do the dirty work the illegals had been performing until that time will be able to demand higher salaries.

Then again, if they ARE NOT deported but legalized instead, the cost of labor will also increase (employers must now pay higher salaries to the legal residents, and must purchase insurance, etc.)

Hmmm... no matter what we do about the matter, costs will rise, it seems. Perhaps it's best to just leave it the way it is?

[pchang]

illegals do pay taxes

Any illegal who has a job gets taxes deducted from their pay. Because they are illegal, they cannot file the tax forms necessary to get their refund of those taxes. This applies to municipalities (for those municipalities which have an income tax), states (for those states which have an income tax), and the federal government.

Poor people will consume more state resources than they contribute in taxes whether they are legal immigrants, born here, or illegal immigrants. It has been generally decided in our society that those who have more will help a little to provide for those who have less.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Ramo
They broke a supremely unjust law, so we should deport them.

Hitler or Stalin would enjoy having y'all as citizens.

Ramo: Please explain to me why you consider immigration, labor, & wage laws to be unjust.

PChang: As you already stated as long as the state or city has an income tax then these people will not get refunds, however, most state and local governments do not have income taxes (our state is an exception not the rule) plus many illegals work off the books as day laborers, farm hands, domestic servants, gardeners, and what not. They are payed cash and thus no taxes, except perhaphs sales tax in locations that have such a tax, would be payed by the illegal laborer.

Dans: You asked the million dollar question what would one of us do if we were in charge. That's a hard call but I will take a stab at it. #1 deport all of the people who are caught after entering the country illegally, #2 increase the number of legal visas issued in order to make up for the lose of availible labor, #3 massively increase the number of border patrol agents and inspection officers in order to regain control over the border and keep out terrorists, illegal migrants, and drug smugglers. Plus increase surprise inspections at workplaces in order to catch companies which hire illegals. #4 It's not fair to punish the migrants and let business off scot free so you greatly increase the fines businesses must pay for employing illegal migrants and breaking minimium wage laws. These fines would get progressively worse for repeat offenders; so much so that they would bankrupt a company who does it more then twice.

The increased enforcement and greater fines will help to foster greater respect and observance of the law. If we don't respect our own laws then why should anyone else? The increase in legal visas will prove that people who agree to work with in the confines of the system can still reach their goals and this will provid the needed workers while still ensure that all the proper taxes are payed and that the national borders are controled.

By enforcing labor and wage laws prices of certain services and agricultural products will rise but I would consider it money well spent if it means butchers, textile workers,restaurant dishwashers, and farm workers are able to get a living wage. I have no doubt that unions will like this since wages will rise and, since most workers will now be legal without deportation hanging over their heads, will now be free to organize unionization efforts.

Since jobs which were previously off the books will now become ligitimate there will be a corrosponding increase in the amount of taxes payed which will help to offset a portion of the increased costs state and local governments are forces to pay due to immigration. This will please local voters and help ease the passage of these reforms. The lose of jobs due to the bankruptcy of companies which are serial labor abusers will suck in the short term but in the long term will be over come. Americans will still buy chicken and salad but they will now be buying it from companies which obey labor and wage laws.

That's my two cents...

[Kc7mxo]

Any illegal who has a job gets taxes deducted from their pay. Because they are illegal, they cannot file the tax forms necessary to get their refund of those taxes. This applies to municipalities (for those municipalities which have an income tax), states (for those states which have an income tax), and the federal government.

Poor people will consume more state resources than they contribute in taxes whether they are legal immigrants, born here, or illegal immigrants. It has been generally decided in our society that those who have more will help a little to provide for those who have less.

You're kidding right? You think the majority of illegals get taxes deducted from their pay? lol. you must not have much experience with agriculture. Most farmers happily pay illegals cash, and never file. The illegals are happy cause their getting all of their pay, and the farmer's happy cause he isn't paying them very much. Perhaps factory owners mark them down for SocSec, but thats out of my sphere of experience.

But you are right about poor people. Under our socialist democracy they are consuming more than they give to society. And, as you said, it has been decided that the people who study and work their butts off should support them. Personally, I don't have a problem supporting the GREAT MANY hard working poor AMERICANS who have it tough.

But I DO have a problem supporting illegals who circumvent our legal system. They also (in my area) represent a very high proportion of criminal activity, don't have car insurance, and are crappy drivers.

[Ramo]

Ramo: Please explain to me why you consider immigration,

I've already explained this. Immigration barriers are designed to prevent the poor and uneducated from providing for themselves and their families and giving their kids a chance at a better life. It's nothing less than oppression motivated by greed.

labor, & wage laws to be unjust.

The labor and wage laws they break are purely incidental of their illegal status. If anything, their employers deserve punishment for that (although, I don't agree with the minimum wage, or certain labor laws, but we're getting off topic here..).

That is not a view widely shared, I'm sure you understand.

There aren't many beliefs of mine that widely shared.

[Ethelred]

There aren't many beliefs of mine that widely shared.

This is a good thing.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Ramo
I've already explained this. Immigration barriers are designed to prevent the poor and uneducated from providing for themselves and their families and giving their kids a chance at a better life. It's nothing less than oppression motivated by greed.

Why shouldnt they be able to provide for themselves and their families in their own country?

[Bosh]

Actually Boshko my ancestors took the time to fill out the legal forms

Mine were lucky to get in before the racist 3% quotas went in, otherwise they'd would've never been able to immigrate and there's be no Boshko , so I have a good bit of sympathy for people trying to immigrate today.

As for the only crime these people commited being to work hard. How about entering the United States without a valid visa, failing to pass a legal

Not their fault that the way the immigration system is set up is pretty ****ed...

Maintaining the integrity of a nation's rule of law is more important

Then don't have stupid counter-productive unenforcable laws

Interesting. That is not a view widely shared, I'm sure you understand.

Well anti-immigration controls if a part of the libertarian party platform I believe, as usual its just anarchists and libetarians sticking it out (as well as us Boshkoists of course ).

Of course, if they ARE deported, the cost of labor will rise, because the unemployment rate will be lower, and any people actually willing to do the dirty work the illegals had been performing until that time will be able to demand higher salaries.
Then again, if they ARE NOT deported but legalized instead, the cost of labor will also increase (employers must now pay higher salaries to the legal residents, and must purchase insurance, etc.)

Right so eeeeeevil capitalists get the best of both worlds at the moment at the moment...

I have no doubt that unions will like this since wages will rise and, since most workers will now be legal without deportation hanging over their heads, will now be free to organize unionization efforts.

Yup, another reason why the current system continues to exist, your system would probably work out better overall as long as the increase in visas is significant enough. Hell, why not increase the visas to the point that anyone who's willing to work gets one?

Why shouldnt they be able to provide for themselves and their families in their own country?

Third World unemployment is generally horrifically high, and why couldn't you?

[DanS]

Oerdin: Re #1, I think that's where we don't agree.

I take a practical view. Do you honestly think that it would be politically feasible to increase the permanent visa quotas on a going-forward basis by a number as high as 10 million?

I don't think it would and there would be mass chaos if you were to try to implement 10 million deportations. But it might be politically feasible to do an amnesty, because the numbers wouldn't be known until the amnesty was over and done with. That's what we did last year for some Central American illegal immigrants. The INS could say "oh, it was much higher than we thought it would be"...

After that, you bump up the quotas by a half million or a million per year to make law breaking much less necessary. Don't know. Perhaps Dino can give his view of the political feasibility of any quota change.