Just Naturalize Them Already

[Gary]

Hmm your political system is even worse than ours for that. And we have enough discussion about financing the parties here.

There was a suggestion that funding should come from public funds, which personally I approve of as it means it can be limited by whatever algorithm one uses and breaks the link between donations and suspected favours. But it doesn't seem popular for some reason. Don't know why, however you fund Joe Public pays in the end.

However, to my horror the other day I heard on the radio that someone is trying to suggest the public funding is to be used to top up voluntary donations rather than replace it ! Sod that ! That no only fails to break the link but gives more of my money so the parties can indulge in more of their "Ya Boo Sucks" games at each other.

[Q Classic]

here's where i stand.

i'd prefer our immigration laws to be strongly enforced; but i want them to get rid of quotas depending on where you come from.

if we are to naturalize them, it must be blind to origin-- we can't just naturalize ONLY the hispanics, which is what the bush administration set out to do-- it's discriminatory, especially for all the asians who wanted to get here legally but couldn't because of the quota.

so: enforce and abolish quotas; or, relax, and be blind to origin.

[Goingonit]

The minimum wage is hardly enough to live on as it is - abolishing it would hurt too many people, even though it would be a great boon to free trade and it would nearly eliminate illegal immigration from Mexico.

[DanS]

OK, a good cross-section of opinion here.

First off, I don't mind enforcing our immigration laws, but enforcement has always been a joke. The feds have pretended to enforce the laws, Americans have pretended to care that the laws are what they are, and the body politic has pretended that we have had low immigration levels.

In short, we have a hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil policy.

But we have a built-in 4% or 5% of our workforce who are illegals because of it. Enforcing our immigration laws now, without naturalizing these people doesn't make a whole lot of sense. You just can't deport 4% or 5% of your workforce without a counterbalance. It just doesn't work!

Then we have this fight against terrorism, where it's suddenly important to know who is in the country and who isn't. You aren't going to deport these folks, and you are still going to turn a blind eye toward their employers, but then you are going to make life difficult for them with all of this federal "checking up"?

No matter the incentives, and no matter the principle involved, you just have to bite the bullet and make them American citizens. Otherwise, our books are always going to be off.

[Dinner]

I question the 5% figure and I'd like to know where you got it from; it is possible but it seems a little high to me. I have a great amount of resistence to the idea of rewarding people for breaking the law. Once you give amnisty to current illegal migrants you will find the new migrants won't believe us when we tell them they have to follow the legal visa process; they will no doubt, correctly, assume that another amnisty will be offered once the number of illegals in the country gets high enough.

We need to deport the illegal aliens back to their countries of origin, fine the companies which break labor and wage laws out of existance, and greatly increase law enforcement efforts.

[Caligastia]

Why should I have to go through the hassle of immigrating here legally when people who come here illegally are being given citizenship??

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Why should I have to go through the hassle of immigrating here legally when people who come here illegally are being given citizenship??

Ask DanS. That is the typical arguement made against amnesty programs of the type he is suggesting. I don't think that I have ever seen an adequate answer to it though.

[Kropotkin]

From the article:
"unauthorized workers account for less than 4 percent of the U.S. labor force but are concentrated in a few industries, including construction, hospitality, textiles, meatpacking and agriculture."

As expected the illegal immigrants are concentrated to labourintensive branches. Construction and agriculture is branches that there's problems doing anything about, at least if you don't want more expensive housing (as I live in a country that unlike most western countries have very few immigrants - legal or illegal - working in counstruction I'd say you should be glad about them) or give up on the domestic agriculture (it's not easy to make a farmingmachine to pick strawberries...).

However, textiles is a branch where the country of origin is of little or no importance to the consumer. The textilecompanies that uses illegal immgrants should move abroad or replace the workers with machines. This is holding back potential increases in productivity.

... and what the *bleep* is 'hospitality'? Hospitals?

[DanS]

"I question the 5% figure and I'd like to know where you got it from"

The 7 million covered under Social Security gets you to 3.5% referenced in the article plus any number of others who fly completely under the radar.

This squares with the roughly 8-10 million people who were "found" all of the sudden in the 2000 census and the unexpected payroll taxes that have been rolling into Uncle Sam's coffers.

"I have a great amount of resistence to the idea of rewarding people for breaking the law."

Guess what? They are already here. They are already being rewarded.

"they will no doubt, correctly, assume that another amnisty will be offered once the number of illegals in the country gets high enough"

And rightly so. It's the way it's always been done.

"We need to deport the illegal aliens back to their countries of origin, fine the companies which break labor and wage laws out of existance, and greatly increase law enforcement efforts."

Yes, that's what we "need" to do. But hey, guess what? It has never happened in the U.S. and the economy would be greatly harmed if it happened.

The hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil policy would say that we are doing something, when in fact we aren't. This has been going on for decades.

[DanS]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Why should I have to go through the hassle of immigrating here legally when people who come here illegally are being given citizenship??

I cannot answer for your misperception about the way things work here in the States. This is the way we have always squared the books. It's very practical.

Anyway, lighten up. It's not like you would anwer "yes, I have commited a crime, but have never been caught" on your immigration forms.

[Bosh]

The government (especially republicans) get caught in between businessmen who want cheap labor and Newsmaxian Knownothing types, the current situation is really a pretty amazing compromise. The businesses get dirt cheap labor with relatively few hassles and better yet labor that won't do annoying things like dry to get decent pay because they have deportation hanging over their heads and while the Newsmaxian types certainly whine alot immigration is somewhat limited and the illegal immigrants can't vote so the Knownothings come off fairly well...

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS


I cannot answer for your misperception about the way things work here in the States. This is the way we have always squared the books. It's very practical.

Misperception? Millions of illegal aliens were given amnesty in the mid 90's, so why should I have to bother doing it the legal way?

Anyway, lighten up. It's not like you would anwer "yes, I have commited a crime, but have never been caught" on your immigration forms.

Or

While in the US, do you plan to engage in

a) espionage?

[DanS]

It's not "especially Republicans" Boshko. The cleavages are everywhere. For instance, the industrial unions speak no evil even though they know that immigration is deeply unpopular with some of their members. Why do they do this? Could it be because the construction workers unions are made up mostly of illegals?

Also, there is a misperception here that illegals are paid below minimum wage. This is by and large not true, at least in the cities. Construction pays very well, for instance.

[DanS]

"so why should I have to bother doing it the legal way?"

I'm talking about why you chose to immigrate legally and create such a hassle for yourself. I can't answer for your gullibility in assuming that this is the only way to do it.

But, hey, you did get a nice cushie government job because of your legal status, so it must have its compensations.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by DanS
"so why should I have to bother doing it the legal way?"

I'm talking about why you chose to immigrate legally and create such a hassle for yourself. I can't answer for your gullibility in assuming that this is the only way to do it.

But, hey, you did get a nice cushie government job because of your legal status, so it must have its compensations.

What I am saying is that its unfair for me to have to go through all this because I am choosing to respect the laws of the USA. Surely you can see that its wrong to give lawbreakers a free ride.