Should I send my boys to an all boy school?

[Skanky Burns]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


I will and I think the idea you know more about women than I do because you went to a co-ed school is laughable So I laugh

Maybe you're just more "house trained" shall we say

Mrs Horse calls the shots on just about everything including education - I just fearfully follow orders

[blackice]

Right now it's a hybrid in most places.

Not only are you wrong but do you have links to prove your “opinion” you know nothing about:

Gender Equity in Education Act, which provided millions of dollars in support for programs aimed at correcting sexism in the classroom, including special math and science programs for girls, sensitivity workshops for educators and new textbooks that corrected gender stereotypes (i.e., women as nurses, men as doctors).

"Our English classes are strongly feminized, even in boys schools," says Hoff Sommers. "We want literature to make boys more sensitive. But I'm not sure that we need to invest in literature as a form of therapy."

She points out that a majority of English teachers still assign fiction in the classroom, while she believes that boys prefer nonfiction. (In the PISA study, girls and boys were asked to self-report on the kind of reading materials they preferred. Boys reported reading more comic books, Web pages and newspapers, while girls read more novels.)
"Boys love adventure stories with male heroes," says Hoff Sommers. "Many would love books by Stephen Ambrose and Tom Clancy. Since they are so far behind in reading, why not give them texts they enjoy? Some teachers are promoting political correctness at the expense of the basic literacy of their male students.

"My own son had to struggle through Amy Tan's 'Joy Luck Club' when he was in the 10th grade," she adds. "It has some attractive features, but it is full of annoying psychobabble about women and their self-esteem struggles. He disliked it. If teachers are going to assign books in popular literature, they should consider the needs and interests of boys."

College admission and graduate rates for girls have soared since 1950. They now constitute the majority of college students and college graduates. And girls earned 57.2 percent of the bachelor's degrees awarded in 2000; boys earned 42.8 percent.

By 1994, a federal law -- the Gender Equity in Education Act -- specifically banned discrimination against girls in school.
From the beginning, critics of the empowerment movement claimed that creating special programs for girls was sexist. Later, other researchers -- most prominently Diane Ravitch, a fellow at the Brookings Institution and a former assistant secretary of education, and Christina Hoff Sommers, author of the 1992 book "Who Stole Feminism" and "The War Against Boys" -- began to question whether there had ever been a "girl crisis" in the first place. These critics painted the feminist leaders of the girl empowerment movement as adult women who were somewhat hysterically looking for evidence of patriarchal coercion where none existed, in order to correct inequities that had been solved by the previous generation.

At least that's how it was when I was in California and up in Canada.

What you meant to say was for you, when attending a school in those places. You were unaware of any issues. If not do you have a link to back your “opinions” That all schools in Canada and California have no gender issues. It appears most researchers in the field strongly disagree with you Dr. Asher.

I certainly didn't have a problem with the quality of education, I'm in higher learning and not a trade school like blackice says guys go to now.

Boys have been tossed into trade schools for years in Canada. Once they determine they are behind they assign them to a trade school. In high school not one trade class had one girl in it. Not one.

So much for your Canada “opinion” most of the boys were assigned classes they did not pick them. All the girls were in the higher education classes whether they needed extra help to maintain it or not. The same was not true for boys it is that way today too. Once again Dr. Asher you claim your experience and blanket that to encompass all of your gender. That is simply wrong you represent a minority in the total picture.

I think the sports issue is personal too, are his kids like you Dr. Asher if not the point is mute. Most boys love sports and rough housing it is a guy thing. Boys will be boys they will find girls most always do.

[blackice]

At the very least go to the schools and find out about the curriculum and see if it fits your children. You know them best and know what it will take to stimulate their own personal advancement. Especially in the R.W.A area. How they deal with kids that lag or excel. Ask them about class sizes. Make sure you ask about their security measures.

Meet the teacher’s tour the schools go there in the day when classes are going on watch and learn. Check to see how many boys are waiting for the principal . Check to see how they deal with boys in classes. Personally I am extremely active in my child’s schooling and was appalled at how the teachers handled boys in class and on outings. I commented this to the teachers and principal several times. They commented “ well you know boys will be boys” I saw no advantage to the boys being sent to the hallway or a time out to the principal for being bored with the topic on hand. I asked how do they learn anything in the hallway? No response or that is the rules for being fidgety and not paying attention and or not keeping quite when asked to.

View recesses see what is tolerated and what isn’t. Make sure the school fits your kids. You should also read "The Wonder of Boys" by Dr. Michael Gurian as a balance to the current book you are reading. IMHO of course.

Last but not least be very active with the school and take turns going on outings. It is great bonding and you learn lot's from the experience.

The adverage household will only lose 3-5 grand taking time to go on the outings by the time your kids do not want you coming. Usually by grade 5 or 6.

[drake]

Any guy that uses that crap you reference as an excuse for thier failure, is a miserable male blackice. "They made me read the Joy Luck Club, and now I'm doomed for illiteracy". Boohoo.

Guys don't usually fail in school because the material is feminised or whatever these people call it, it's because theres still a very strong male stereotype that success in the classrooms is for geeks. Guys don't usually fail because they are dumb or because they don't relate to the material. They fail because they don't apply themselves.

Getting into college isn't rocket science. Most state schools have very low standards and it takes minimal effort for a normal person to be accepted, male or female. Citing feminised classrooms is a load of bull.

And since when have teachers ever cared what thier students liked? Kids have to learn what they're taught regardless of thier interests.

[blackice]

Drake your a funny guy

[drake]

Glad I'm amusing to you.

Just be nice to wake up one morning and for once people take some accountability for themselves...rather than trying to pass the buck as always.

"Son, you're not having a hard time in school because they made you read Joy Luck Club, you're having a hard time because you're a lazy, whiny piece of turd who doesn't even try."

[blackice]

Any guy that uses that crap you reference as an excuse for thier failure, is a miserable male blackice. "They made me read the Joy Luck Club, and now I'm doomed for illiteracy". Boohoo.

I don’t recall reading that? I recall a well-known researcher and author telling about how bored her child was reading that book. I also know in order to stimulate a young mind it takes giving them something they are interested in or making it appear so. We had reading labs so you picked what you wanted to read and did an essay. Most all in the class passed with high marks boys and girls.

Guys don't usually fail in school because the material is feminised or whatever these people call it, it's because theres still a very strong male stereotype that success in the classrooms is for geeks.

I disagree and agree some what with you “geek” part I do know very few kids like that. They certainly do not represent the mass. I submit that if it was interesting and they were not pushed to failure they would not think this way at all. Most of those kids agree they find school boring and do not excel therefore the rest are geeks. I guess you to liked that book as it was required reading for you too?

Guys don't usually fail because they are dumb or because they don't relate to the material. They fail because they don't apply themselves.

And the studies to show this are where?

Citing feminised classrooms is a load of bull.

And the studies to show this are where?

And since when have teachers ever cared what thier students liked? Kids have to learn what they're taught regardless of thier interests.

I sure hope you are not involved with the education system…

[drake]

I did plenty of things in high school and college that I hated. Who hasn't? Gen Ed requirements in college REQUIRE people to take classes that are of no interest at all to them. Is it beneficial? Probably not. But no kid has or ever will get through a school system without taking courses that they don't enjoy. True or false?

I'm sure I would think Joy Luck CLub sucks ass too, but I would read it and learn whats required out of it, enough to get by in the class.

No, I'm not involved in the education system, but nothing I said was un-true. People have to learn things they don't enjoy and do things they don't want to do to get through. Thats life.

You ask me to cite examples, well I cite my own experiences. The kids in my schools who succeeded applied themselves to the courses, even though many detested the material, and the slackers (like myself), didn't usually do so great. Not because I was dumb, or thought the material was geared towards girls, but because I was a lazy guy who had his mind on the ball field or about how I was going to screw off later with my other slacker buds. And I had company. Lots of it.

One day, after continuing to be a slacker in college for a few years I realised what was at the root of my problems. It wasn't the teachers. It wasn't the other students. It wasn't my roommates. The only thing holding me back was myself. And guess what? Thats the only thing in the way of most kids. Thier own stupid selves.

Oh...and what exactly is wrong with trade schools?

[blackice]

Well thanks for sharing that. I ask would you have been more interested in school if you read books you liked? Would you have been more interested in school if someone took the time to help you get interested or encouraged it based on your individuality and interest's?

Everyone does things in school they do not like. The keys is getting kids interested early. The key is keeping their interest be it boring or not. I am sure thier were teachers who kept you interested and some that did not.

As far as being a slacker goes, what has that got to do with school? It would seem that was going on well before school. People just don't turn into slackers for no reason what so ever.

Yes some kids are raised that way, some turn to drugs etc. Not many people are born "slackers" though. If the school can change things even a bit to convert the "slackers" what is wrong with that?

I don't know what is wrong with trade school?

[Asher]

Originally posted by blackice
Not only are you wrong but do you have links to prove your “opinion” you know nothing about:

Well, I went to six different schools in two countries and haven't experienced what you've mentioned. But maybe it was just luck, considering the feminists are everywhere!

Those are interesting excerpts you've found, particularly about the Gender Equity act. That just goes to show me that my personal experiences are simply lies, that this Gender Equity act you're talking about in fact is not about Gender Equity but about promoting the evil feminist agenda and is part of an elaborate plan from the feminists to degrade men and steal their children. Right?

Most of your quotes are irrelevant "testominials" which can be simply personal experiences with bad teachers. There are schools and maybe even provinces/states that have issues with it, but it's not for everyone like you've continually been asserting. I'm going to pick apart one of the funniest excerpts you quoted. It's obvious you're trying to slant this in an obvious way...

College admission and graduate rates for girls have soared since 1950.

Maybe that's because girls got the message that they're not all supposed to be housewives for their entire lives?

They now constitute the majority of college students and college graduates. And girls earned 57.2 percent of the bachelor's degrees awarded in 2000; boys earned 42.8 percent.

Where did you get this? Is that the report that was released around June 25th of this year that's been hyped up by the media and laughed at by critics?
The report fails to mention that male college grads increased as well, up to 529,000 in 2000. The reason why the female number is higher (698,000) is because many of the housewives from the baby boomer era are going back to school.

Then again you can look in the actual areas where these degrees are coming from. Areas like computer science are almost completely male dominated. There are maybe a couple girls in a lecture hall of 75 for me in the CS fields. Once you go into Psychology it's 75% women.

For my university (University of Calgary) it's 46% male and 54% female over all.
But it's not as cut & dry as you make it out to be.
In engineering, in Spring 2001, 224 engineering degrees were handed out to males, 70 to females.
For fine arts, 25 to males, 73 to females.
"Communication and Culture" (Women's studies, Canadian Studies, Tourism, and other trivial areas) had 179 women and 45 men graduate. Nursing: 166 females, 12 males. Computer science: 84 males, 22 females. General Mathematics: 4 males, 0 females. Physics: 14 males, 1 female. Pure mathematics: 4 males, 0 females. Geology: 17 males, 10 females.

Source: http://www.fp.ucalgary.ca/oia/Facts/01-02FB.pdf

It's not as black & white as you'd like to believe it is.

What you meant to say was for you, when attending a school in those places. You were unaware of any issues. If not do you have a link to back your “opinions” That all schools in Canada and California have no gender issues. It appears most researchers in the field strongly disagree with you Dr. Asher.

I never said all schools don't have issues. I said quite the opposite, in fact. Certain regions and schools may have issues, but I don't believe it's the case for all or even most. Looking at the local university's statistics certainly tell me that many people such as yourself try to slant the numbers in some kind of way like "the sky is falling!".

Boys have been tossed into trade schools for years in Canada. Once they determine they are behind they assign them to a trade school. In high school not one trade class had one girl in it. Not one.

Hmm. Well perhaps I live on another planet, because there were some girls in the woodshop class and guys in the baking class. And I know of zero boys that have been tossed into trade schools. But then again my experience is obviously the not the norm since millions of researchers around the world have decided boys are thrown into trade schools.

So much for your Canada “opinion” most of the boys were assigned classes they did not pick them. All the girls were in the higher education classes whether they needed extra help to maintain it or not. The same was not true for boys it is that way today too. Once again Dr. Asher you claim your experience and blanket that to encompass all of your gender. That is simply wrong you represent a minority in the total picture.

I think you're the one making the blanket statements that aren't grounded in reality.

[drake]

I did read books I liked. I usually did well in english classes.

Art and Gym class (yes go ahead and snicker ) were really all I cared about going to on a daily basis. Math, science, history..none ever really interested me that much. But I always got by with C's and B's, by always doing the bare minimum. And guess what? C's and B's are enough to get into college.

The people with the D's and F's in most cases were the ones who skipped class and didn't give a **** at all. No curriculum change is going to help these kind of people. One has to care atleast somewhat.

My slacking attitude developed as a lack of inspiration in most of my classes. Not because I couldn't relate to the material, but because I thought the material was irrelevent or BS (and still do for the most part).

[blackice]

http://www.fp.ucalgary.ca/oia/Facts/01-02FB.pdf

It's not as black & white as you'd like to believe it is.

That tells the real story, females vs. males way more females than males. I found no mention of these “child rearing enrollment” facts you suggested. Do we assume once again Dr. Asher has an “opinion” he is trying to pass off as fact.

Once again the whole picture alludes you take one area of the numbers and post it because it suits your agenda. What ever that is you seem to be very confused about the gender issues.

But it's not as cut & dry as you make it out to be.

Appears it is with those numbers which mimic numbers in the states over all and Canada overall.

I said quite the opposite

If you believe so I will not shatter your illusion

slant the numbers

Please do explain since the numbers from the above link echo them...

Most of your quotes are irrelevant "testominials" which can be simply personal experiences with bad teachers. There are schools and maybe even provinces/states that have issues with it, but it's not for everyone like you've continually been asserting.

Thanks for your “irrelevant” “opinion” I know your research and lectures are highly regarded in this field.

It could be professionals doing years of studies on the subject matter already posted. This whole concept seems to allude you. You continue to present your “opinions as facts. Then claim the experts are frauds, nutcases and or completely unaware of what Dr. Asher knows.

Give it up man. Bad teachers, bad teaching, extra funding and classes for girls, teaching methods or ignorance in the differences between the genders and learning. I say a combination of all of the above. So do most researchers.

It's obvious you're trying to slant this in an obvious way...

No just presenting facts from several sources with several different views…You? Her views and facts are equally important to a complete discussion.

The best part his she is an expert in the field and her whole approach is not based on “opinions” and fast google searches.

cut and dry

? oh you mean the facts yes they are cut and dry in some areas.

In engineering, in Spring 2001, 224 engineering degrees were handed out to males, 70 to females.

Could this be because there is a distinct difference in what the genders choose for careers? Or is it some mass male conspiracy.

Hmm. Well perhaps I live on another planet,

I wonder sometimes it would explain a lot though.

because there were some girls in the woodshop class and guys in the baking class.

Let me guess one tomboy as they used to call them in shop and you in the baking class?

researchers

Yes researchers, professionals in the field not some boy living in an “opinionated” world of “self-delusion” and visions of “grandeur”.

I pick the researchers any day thanks.

Don’t delude yourself Dr. Asher Dr. Summers is just one researcher that happens to be against extra funding and special classes for girls only. That is gender discrimination and she has some very valid points. She has done very respected research in the field, you?

[blackice]

The people with the D's and F's in most cases were the ones who skipped class and didn't give a **** at all.

We all knew a few of those, in my experience most were getting into drugs at the time. others had problems at home and still others were just skipped ahead not knowing enough to survive.

No curriculum change is going to help these kind of people. One has to care atleast somewhat.

I disagree somewhat, maybe a change is what they needed or some one to take the time to find out what they cared about. It could have been home related I am an optimist and believe any kid is worth saving.

My slacking attitude developed as a lack of inspiration in most of my classes. Not because I couldn't relate to the material, but because I thought the material was irrelevent or BS (and still do for the most part).

If the curriculum changed or you had a teacher make it interesting or could relate it to you and or today’s environment? That would not spark interest? Most boys are hands on learners what if it caterer to that mostly male gender need.

[Asher]

Originally posted by blackice
That tells the real story, females vs. males way more females than males. I found no mention of these “child rearing enrollment” facts you suggested. Do we assume once again Dr. Asher has an “opinion” he is trying to pass off as fact.

Um. Look around on a modern college campus. There's quite a few back to school moms, especially in these condensed summer terms...

Once again the whole picture alludes you take one area of the numbers and post it because it suits your agenda. What ever that is you seem to be very confused about the gender issues.

Blackice, there's 51% females in Canada, 49% males. 54% females at a university isn't something to cry about like you're doing. It's an obvious reflection of the modern idea of the career woman, and many of the aging baby boomer moms are going back to school now that their kids are grown up. Is it any surprise we see an increase in enrollment?

Please do explain since the numbers from the above link echo them...

If they echo them, you're only proving my point on a wider scale...

Thanks for your “irrelevant” “opinion” I know your research and lectures are highly regarded in this field.

Likewise.

It could be professionals doing years of studies on the subject matter already posted. This whole concept seems to allude you. You continue to present your “opinions as facts. Then claim the experts are frauds, nutcases and or completely unaware of what Dr. Asher knows.

Look, blackice, there are studies for EVERYTHING. It's amazing what money can buy, and how statistics and figures can mislead people. Remember: "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics".

Your studies and links have only shown that more and more women are going to college in this new day & age of the career woman attitude. Your same figures neglect the fact that male enrollment is also up! You're ignoring critical facts just so you can try to make a point, and I don't even think you realize it.

Could this be because there is a distinct difference in what the genders choose for careers? Or is it some mass male conspiracy.

Hey, you see my point. This is precisely what you're doing now, but on a wider scale. You're looking at the overall figures where the female figure is slightly higher for enrollment in modern universities and you're off in a bug huff about all the feminist school boards are oppressing boys in the childhood and forcing them into trade schools.

Let me guess one tomboy as they used to call them in shop and you in the baking class?

You're such an insightful person.
Do you live your life by stereotypes, or just your arguments? I pity you...

[Asher]

As for links about the back to school moms stuff, how's this for you? From one of your favorite sites too!

http://www.parentsoup.com/experts/college/articles/0,8248,166584_170201,00.html

Back-to-school time still conjures images of mom waving from the front steps as junior departs with lunch-box in tow. But today's moms (and dads) are themselves increasingly likely to be joining the back-to-school brigade. At last count, more than 40 percent of the nation's 14 million undergraduate students were 25 or older, up from about 25 percent in the 1970s. Nearly half of today's graduate students are over 30, and a quarter of them have celebrated their 40th birthday.

Tada

And from the UofC's fact sheet: http://www.fp.ucalgary.ca/oia/Facts/01-02FB.pdf
For Fall 2001 enrollment (fulltime)
40 year old males: 15 females: 34
41 year old males: 12 females: 37
42 year old males: 8 females: 35
43 year old males: 12 females: 27
44 year old males: 13 females: 22
45 year old males: 8 females: 40
46 year old males: 7 females: 27
47 year old males: 9 females: 24
48 year old males: 6 females: 15
49 year old males: 5 females: 12
50 year old males: 1 females: 14

Obviously more women are going back to school than men, most likely after a child grew up.

Meanwhile the younger ages are almost equal.