Why your protestations against capitalism are doomed to failure...

[Krayzeenbk]

Hey Fez

"A lie told often enough becomes the truth"
Guess who said that...

Stop believing lies. Just because everyone around you might agree to the same lie, doesn't mean it's the truth. The problem with people like you is you just go along and agree with everybody, when in fact all THEY're doing is going along with each other and agreeing. You could be made to believe anything if everybody around you held it as common truth. You hear the same old "communism is an economic this that and it's evil and it can never work because of human nature" from EVERYONE, EVERYWHERE, and it has become the truth. It's not like there's a central authority on communism whom you can consult, so people make up assumptions of varying degrees of wrongness about it.

Not that I'm agitating for communism. But if you don't take a trip to the left for a year or so you will be left intellectually, ideologically, spiritually, and otherwise behind by those who do.

Logic: human conciousness isn't logical. Abstract concepts have different meanings in different places, cultures, and in different people's heads. So if you try to use logic to analyze how somebody else works using your conception of their abstrations, you will fail. By refusing to accept the possibility of communism (a very abstract abstraction) being something that you're not used to (and thus perhaps denying what you have said earlier), you are refusing to even try to understand many other people.

When I was a real atheist, my reaction to anything motivated by religion was "wtf? why would you do anything just because of religion"
Now I understand (I'm still atheist, I guess).
When I was a real atheist, I was also like you, but now I sympathize with communists, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Confucians, average well-meaning Americans, and just about anyone else who isn't a pagan Satanist bent on world destruction.

[Giancarlo]

I will not respond to the repetitions of the falsehoods already stated here.

[Shi Huangdi]

So John, what about people like Berzerker? He is middle-aged, as extreme libertarian as you can get, and he plans to raise his kids ultra-libertarian like he is. He didn't lose any extreme beliefs with age,

[SnowFire]

What's this about your wife not being as extreme? At least in the Oberlin bubble, the females are among the most radical here, generally. The only one not at least semi-socialist one I can think of was a radical Objectivist. All of the other vaugely conservative/libertarian/something other than strong left people I can think of are male. Then again most of the people I know are male, so that skews things, but still.

[Victor Galis]

Hmm... missed so many posts, but sleep is soo good.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by JohnT
Kropotkin: yup. You're right. There are a lot of assumptions, but you know something? I'm pretty OK with making them. [...] does one really have to put disclaimers on every point? Is it not obvious that, for example, the bit about kids will (likely) not apply to gay couples?

As you speak party from your own experience I do as well. Not my personal experiences but from what I see and hear about people about your age I know of and even if some of the assumptions apply to most your conclution doesn't. Many of them really like to debate and get angry about things. The one that fades away as you describe it are usually those that was pretty boring from the start.

But yes, radicalism fades (both ways as some people here seems to miss. Laissez-faire might not be such a nice thing if you have kids or getting old). The most radical and "free-thinking" youngsters around here will probably be the most boring conformists in ten to twenty years time.

To reiterate: Youthful radicalism decreases: the beliefs might not, but the passion does. Anyway, you'll get bored. Bored of making the same arguments, bored of being angry all the time, bored of hearing the same rebuttals, bored at the lack of progress. Once the boredom reaches a certain level, you'll find something else... hopefully a nice spouse and kids.

So what are you doing here anyway?

[Zoid]

Re: Why your protestations against capitalism are doomed to failure...

Originally posted by JohnT

[...]

1. You have the time to do so.
2. You have very little to lose.

When the situation becomes reversed (as it undoubtably will), well, I'll see you on the golf course! Perhaps then we can talk some real business...

I´m afraid you´re right, John... That IS my experience as well. Once you´re on the property ladder, there´s no turning back.

[Stefu]

I hope that the guy collecting FezCarlo's quotes (come on, there must be at least one) is collecting the ones about how he'll never be a leftist. If Poly has survived in some form 10-30 years from now, and FezCarlo's still a member, we'll all have a good laugh about them then, I'll wager.

[aaglo]

JohnT; What you said has happened very frequently here.
Björn Wahlroos was a student and a 'hard-core' communist in the 70's; now he is the chairman of a Finnish financial group. And he is currently known to throw offensive quotes towards trade unions... some communist changing coat...

[Kropotkin]

Most of the commies in the 70s turned right as the wind turned. Those damn babyboomers is a bunch of free-riders that represent everything that's wrong in our societies. They got the best education when they where young, the best jobs when they got middle age and will get the best pensions when they retire.

We have to remember that 'everyone' that was anyone was a commie in the 70s. That 'everyone' is rightwing now might not be such a good example to make generalisations about. It's not like 'everyone' that's between 10-15 today will listen to boybands and Britney-clones in twenty years time.

[JohnT]

Kropt: "They got the best education when they where young, the best jobs when they got middle age and will get the best pensions when they retire. "

Perhaps you don't remember the boomers complaint about the very same thing happening to them viz their parents back in the mid-70's, early-80's? "The WW2 generation holds XX% of the wealth, YY% of the nations top-paying jobs, and ZZ% of the power in Washington" was a common refrain back then.

What goes around, comes around, and then goes around again.

Anyway, don't threadjack my thread. I'm not talking about societal changes in political persuasion, but the individual's overall tendancy to lose the passion, to moderate as they grow older regardless of their political persuasion.

[Kropotkin]

So you don't have any passion for you wife or you children?

[JohnT]

Where do you think I redirected all that energy that I used to expend arguing about politics/economics 10-15 years ago?

[Kropotkin]

Well, then you didn't lose the passion. You merely directed it to another subject. If someone else don't tie themselves to n number of black holes of expenses (n= w(ife)+ x (number of) children) they might not change.

[chequita guevara]

JohnT's right. Life takes the wind out of your sails. I certainly don't have the passion for politics I once had. Bunnygrrl says I've matured politically. At the same time, my understanding of my politics has deepened and strengthened. However, roadtrips to the latest mass demonstration against globalization are not going to be as frequent as they once were. Last one was three years ago when we went to the Mumia demonstration. Despite the fact that I know nolonger believe Mumia's innocent (which isn't to say I think he got a fair trial), it was still one of my favorite demos, simply because I got to sit a in cherry tree in full blossom in the middle of a 20K demo. (I really wanted to go to the Seattle demo, but given my asthma's probably reaction to the gas attack, it's fprtunate I did not.)