8 Children Killed in Israeli Attack

[aaglo]

Nice thread you have here. I'd just like to say something before it's closed.

Everybody, have a nice day

[muxec]

Why does your avatar looks as pig?

[CyberGnu]

Aaglo, it was decent for a while, then BlackIce and mucex crashed the party. Right now I keep posting for entertainment value.

muxec, freudian vision?

[The Mad Monk]

It's not a pig, it's a Gnu.

An animal whose chief claim to fame is an ability to lick its own ears.

[Kropotkin]

Muxec FYI the incas was in the south americas, the Aztec empire existed around current Mexico city and the Yucatan, the Mayas where long gone. None of these empires had land in what is present USA.

As for Karl XII he didn't make any lasting contributions to the sixe of the Swedish kingdom. He lost a famous battle around Poltava in 1709 and managed to (possibly) get killed by someone from his own side in Norway later.

Maybe you shouldn't speak about things you don't have a clue about. It only makes you look stupid and it will probably take a long time before anyone in this thread takes you seriously here or anywhere else on the forum.

[moomin]

Don't forget Karl XII:s famous exploits in Surinam, the Amazon Delta and Okinawa, Krop. All parts of the Royal Swedish Empire these days.

[Kropotkin]

Oh moomin, watch out. He might believe you.

But I guess that would be nice for you to have someone believe you for once.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
A better answer would have been that he already had troops in Norway, the troops in Finland were knee deep in Russians. In fact the troops in Finland were under the nominal control of the Finns, who as far as I know had no reason to go to war with you. I'm not saying that Sweden would not have had to fight, I'm saying that Sweden would have been able to successfully defend itself.

Frankly, Doc, that's nonsense. Sweden would probably have been a thougher nut to crack for the Wehrmacht than Denmark and Norway, but of the final outcome there can be no question - up till mid-44, the Germans could have walked all over us without much sweat. In fact, Sweden was woefully unprepared for WWII, and the crash effort to modernize the Swedish army from WWI level that was initiated in 39 would result in a satisfactory defense level - in 1955. A bit late for the party, as it were.

Yes that would have meant some Swedes getting killed, but at least you'd have had your consciences clear with the knowledge that you weren't collaborating with the fiend Hitler. That is unless of course your people didn't really have a problem with what Hitler was doing.

Only if you accept that there is an inherent responibility to sacrifice your own people on the behalf of others. I don't think so. Keeping Sweden out of WWII is the best things the Social Democrats ever did for this country. There's still blame enough to handle even within these parameters - because Swedish steel was so important to the Germans, there really was no reason to permit German troop transports in Sweden - it's not like they would have risked the supply by going ballistic over a refusal to transport German occupational forces to nothern Norway.

Surely Wallenberg must have told somebody in Sweden about what Hitler was doing?

Oh, Stockholm was quite a melting pot of espionage and diplomatic intrigue during the war. Of course the Swedish government knew early on that all those Nazi camps weren't exactly holliday resorts. But they duly passed that info to the Allies, who for reasons of their own chose to sit on the info and urged the Swedish government to do likewise. Not that the Swedish government wasn't happy to do so, mind, but this particular blame we share with everybody else involved.

I'm asking for the Swedish people to make up their minds as to whether it is better to take a risk and fight for freedom and the right of the defenseless (Jews) to live, or to sit back and accept the butcher's money. It's a moot question, your people already did, and the consequences are on your hands, which is really what this discusion has been all about. It is on YOU to do something to make right what YOUR people did to the Jews 50+ years ago and thereby remedy the current situation in Israel.

Oh please. I'll accept collective Swedish responsibilty for the Holocaust when you either unearth the Swedish gas chambers where Jews where put to death or provide me with a reason - any reason - Sweden should have acted more morally than the Allies who steadfastedly refused to bomb the Nazi death camps long after there was no doubt what was happening there. While I admire anyone who sticks their neck out on someone else's behalf, I don't demand it from anyone.

[Ned]

Originally posted by moomin



Oh, Stockholm was quite a melting pot of espionage and diplomatic intrigue during the war. Of course the Swedish government knew early on that all those Nazi camps weren't exactly holliday resorts. But they duly passed that info to the Allies, who for reasons of their own chose to sit on the info and urged the Swedish government to do likewise. Not that the Swedish government wasn't happy to do so, mind, but this particular blame we share with everybody else involved.

Moomin, The Allies asked Sweden to keep quiet about the camps? I didn't know this.

Can you give us a little more on this point?

Which Allies?

[muxec]

OK. People more and more of you say that FOUNDATION of Israel is aggression.
So where is the place of jews???

[Goingonit]

The point is moot - the Allies (specifically the USA) knew all about the camps as early as 1942; they certainly were inactive on their own.

[Kropotkin]

Muxec: The jews are free to live in my neighbourhood if they want to as long as they keep their Golems chained.

The problem isn't that Israel was created per se but how it got rid of (most of) the rest of the people that lived there.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Goingonit
The point is moot - the Allies (specifically the USA) knew all about the camps as early as 1942; they certainly were inactive on their own.

In an earlier thread, their was some dicussion of the US state department not believing the stories about the camps. They apparently thought it was Jewish propaganda.

However, actively asking the Swedes to cover it up during the war is quite another kettle of fish.

Who did this?

[blackice]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
No BlackIce, they avoid making a definite statement. they state quite clearly that the world will never know what truly happened in Jenin, as impartial observers weren't allowed. Instead they have to rely on reports by human rights organizations, eyewitnesses and goverment announcements. I take it you didn't read the report? Didn;t stop you from referring to it's content about three times in the same post...


Anyway, it is quite clear this is above your head. My expectations have been fulfilled, you have nothing to add and instead resort to name calling.


Maybe if I try really hard I can come up with an argument that is simple enough that even you would understand it...

Look at the pretty choo-choo! Ooooh, good BlackIce! Can BlackIce say 'Dada'?

Hmm, right intellectual level, but alas, not really filled with information. I guess the two requirements are mutually exclusive.

Cyber I take that as you ceed since your maturity level is not up to part with an adult conversation I will drop it.

You obviously have an agenda that reality can not interfer with. When you do answer the call for proof let me know. Until then your opinions will be far less creadible. You are in denial about a lot of things obviously Cyber. Good luck take care.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Ned
In an earlier thread, their was some dicussion of the US state department not believing the stories about the camps. They apparently thought it was Jewish propaganda.

While wispering about the final solutions had been going on since early 1941, the Swedish government didn't get enough to go on until August 1942, when SS-officer Kurt Gerstein met with the Secretary of the Swedish Legation to Germany Göran von Otter and spilled out the details of the things he had witnessed in Auschwitz and Treblinka. von Otter promptly informed Stockholm. The Swedish government sat on this information for two weeks, not knowing which way to go, but eventually decided it had to notify someone, so the Swedish Washington ambassador contacted the US State Department. A month later, the American ambassador in Stockholm informed the Swedish Foreign Secretary that the US found this information dubious and that the US saw no reason to act on it at that point.

The Swedish government, needless to say, was very relieved to oblige, given how appeasement to the Germans had been avowed Swedish policy so far. It now felt it had passed the ball and could comfortably wash its hands.

Kurt Gerdstein, incidentally, didn't give up. He also somehow contacted members of the Dutch resistance and urged them to broadcast his tale to London, which was also ignored. He also tried to contact the Allies directly, spoke with members of the church... and wasn't ever taken seriously. It's difficult to believe someone, somewhere, wasn't sitting on this and other stories starting to come out from Nazi-occupied Europe and supressing them.