Why is homosexuality "wrong"

[Dom Pedro II]

Well, that is true. There's nothing more embarressing than a gay guy hitting on a straight guy because he doesn't know he's straight. At least with a man hitting on a woman, he can see she's a woman (well, usually ) and he's at least got a shot unless she's a lesbian... or married or something. Ya know... I really think I lost the direction of where this was going, I wanted to post more than "Yes."

[Verto]

You know, I'm getting tired of the talk that Americans need to be tolerant of others, that we mustn't offend anyone. (Under God...)

This talk that homosexuals and heterosexuals need to drop the "us and them" mentality, that homosexuals are an "oppressed minority" is the same thing.

I do not think it is my right/duty/privilege/responsibility to harass homosexuals or push my own religious/political views onto anyone, so kindly do the same for me.

And do not accuse someone of being christian homophobes simply because they disagree with your stance. I think homosexualism is wrong, but I'm not afraid of it, or hate homosexuals - anyone who claims that they, as Christian and because of their belief in God, oppose homosexualism and at the same time hate them, is hippocritical.

[moomin]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So your view is determined by an admitted ignorance.

Of course. We're discussing how stereotyping affects groups and how stereotypes come to exist. It's inherent in the formation of stereotypes that we reason from incomplete or even downright false data - because stereotypes are handy where you can't be bothered to acquire better info, be it because it's either difficult to get or because you simply don't care enough to expend the effort.

You are quick to equal stereotyping with bigotry, btw. I think a distingushing feature of bigotry, that clearly separates it from stereotyping, is unwillingness to judge an individual that falls within the frame of any stereotype on his or her own merits. Exemple: while I'm putting forward the reasons why I think the public at larges thinks homos as a group behave more indecently than heteros as a group, I don't think you do so, because nothing you've ever written here indicates it and quite a lot points in the other direction.

Also, you seem to hold the belief that stereotyping as such is bad - and I'm not so sure I agree. It sure makes life a lot easier, at least as long as you're actually willing to disreagard your stereotype when it's clearly inappropriate. For instance, as an urbanite, I hold a number of stereotypes as to the interests and behaviours of people who live in rural areas. This has helped me interacting and gaining acceptance at such times I've spent some time out in the boondocks - but then I was wise enough to identify those whom the stereotype didn't fit and deal with them accordingly on the individual level.

If you're not willing to get to know gay persons on an individual level and thus recognize them as such, that's your decision.

From the several hundered people I know by name, there is exactly one who I know is gay. If statistics are to be belived, I know at least a few others who are homo, but it's not anything I know about. And guess what? I'm happy to leave it that way. In general, I'm quite happy neither knowing or caring what anybody else likes to do in the bed as long as I don't contemplate going to bed with them myself. Actively seeking out gays in order to measure their strangeness seems like a real quaint idea to me.

I suppose it's perfectly fine for someone who has grown up without contact with blacks to hold negative stereotypes of them, out of pure ignorance?

I think "as a white, I shouldn't be strolling the streets of Harlem alone by night" is a perfectly justifiable stereotype. I don't see a problem with it until I start seeing a mugger in every black I meet regardless of the situation or this particular guys behaviour.

Well, when gays do PDAs in most places outside of the urban centers, they tend to be targets of bashings and other forms of harassment. Parades=better odds!

There is that. Which, btw, is utterly deplorable.

But while it may require more courage, it's also a much better way of conveying a positive image of homosexuality than all the gay parades in the world. If I was grand poo-bah of any national organization of gays, I'd certainly try to push for members doing this instead.

But again, I'm not telling you you ought to be doing it. It's not like I think being gay requires you to give a fig about the gay community, anymore than being straight requires me to give a fig about the straight community.

Do I condone a guy walking down in a flamboyant outfit? Sure, he can do what he wants. He should be free to do so. It's his individual right to dress how he pleases. I will not condemn him, no.

Guess what? I, like, totally agree. Individual freedom is way to important to be messing with. But to say that others shouldn't form opinions of the community that invites and encourages this guy to do his stuff is just plain ridiculous, I think. Of course people seeing him will from opinions. They'd be brain-dead if they didn't.

I still don't see why there can be a gay parade where every participant looks and behaves like a respectable member of the society while still making it abundandly clear they're gays - hold hands, wear pink three-pice suits, whatever. Just keep the genitals to themselves.

Unless, of course, you're saying that intentionally freaking people out with distastful behaviour is somehow an intrinsic part of being gay. In which case, of course, the stereotype we discuss is entirely justifiable.

There's something not quite right here. Since pride parades have been increasing in number in the past few years, it's logical more and more people are being exposed to them. Now, given your logic, we should be seeing waves of revulsion. However, what we've seen is a dramatic increase in levels of tolerance and acceptance of gays, and a continuing trend of gays going "mainstream."

That leads me to a few conclusions:

1) If, as you imply from your experience, parades are the only face of gay people other people see, they must, in fact, raise acceptance and tolerance, not lower it.
2) If that is not the case, than clearly something else is out there being done by the gay community to foster awareness of gay issues and promote tolerance and understanding, and it is apparently strong enough to combat the negative "backlash" over parades you experience.
3) Since the overwhelming number of folks I know who have seen parades do not hold any negative feelings towards gays about them (and, in fact, really enjoy themselves at the parades), your own opinion is most likely that of a minority.

This whole question is somewhat beside the main discussion on whether parades are good for the general perception of gay people or not, but I'll give you a short answer anyway. I think your 1) is wrong, your 2) is correct and your 3) is possible, although I know I'm at least in a sizeable minority in that case.

In short what happened is that I think we're seeing the ongoing liberalization of society, and that gay acceptance follows this trend just as all other things do. Ultimately responsible for this trend are ideas from the enlightment that grow ever stronger, even several hundered years after the event. For instance, I happen to think that female liberation is an effect of market economy no longer being able to competitively sustain the loss of half the potential workforce a lot more than being the result of feminst theory and practice. And much as I belive that while early suffragettes did a lot of good, I also hold the belief that modern feminism has long since passed it's best-before date and is way more harmful than benefical to women these days.

In the same manner, why I think gay parades once were a good idea, I think they're harmful to the gay community today.

Exactly because it is infinitely less important. If you want, I can go around the St. Paddy's Day parade and document everyone who litters whilst walking down 5th avenue. I can then document how it continues, and accuse the organizers of condoning littering and not taking steps to stop it, and then generalize that all Irish people are litterers who don't care about the environment. We can take anything that far.

Mmm. But this fails as a comparison because you'd have to show that Paddy day paraders litter more than anybody else to justify that stereotype. And you have this problem with the gay parades - the admittedly fringe behaviour going on there simply has no hetero counterpart. So of course people notice, and of course it's seen as distinctive for gay people at large.

Sure, by the external observers who are out with an agenda to find something to get indignant about.

I think you overstate when you claim someone has to have an (evil, no doubt) agenda to react to these things. They really stand out because they deviate so far from what's otherwise acknowledged as acceptable behaviour for grown-up people.

And I'm still waiting for that condemnation from you of Dim's sentiments, since we all have to apologize for the acts of individuals in our groups...

And I'll be sure to offer you one when you catch me marching in his train...

My advise is just for you to get over being shocked and indignant about it, because then most of those folks will be robbed of their thunder.

Oh, I understand perfectly well they do it for shock value, and would move on to something else if the victim wasn't participating by showing hurt or dismay, just like school bullies. But we're not talking about my own discomfort here - I solved that problem a long time ago by removing myself from these events even as a curious spectator, as per your suggestion. I'm talking about that even those who'll choose to stomach it will invariably form stereotypes about all homosexuals based on what they see there.

I will also add that the more extreme ones committed acts of vandalism and violence, something I don't see in the gay community.

Nobody has ever accused gays of being overly violent. But then, unlike public lewdness, nothing the gay community does officially and in public would make such a stereotype even remotely rational.

No, it doesn't get perverted until you take on your whole club in one night...

And I'm truly sorry I didn't follow that up with a smiley. It was entirely tongue-in-cheek, and I often forget how such things come out looking when you don't have facial expression or voice to help with interpretation. Please accept my sincere apologies.

[Provost Harrison]

Originally posted by Dan Severn
Isn't thaty a Panzer II in the picture?

Close. You'll find that is in fact a Pansy

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison


Close. You'll find that is in fact a Pansy

Actually it's a Pansy III

[MrFun]

Moominparatrooper, humans are by nature, social creatures.

Gays, lesbians, and bisexuals seek to identify with one another because of their similar experiences, and because they share a common identity.

It's unfair of you to demand that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals do away with Gay Pride events, which is only one vehicle to socialize among members of their own minority group.

Many humans also seek out to identify with certain groups of people that most completely conforms to their own individual values.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Verto
You know, I'm getting tired of the talk that Americans need to be tolerant of others, that we mustn't offend anyone. (Under God...)

This talk that homosexuals and heterosexuals need to drop the "us and them" mentality, that homosexuals are an "oppressed minority" is the same thing.

I do not think it is my right/duty/privilege/responsibility to harass homosexuals or push my own religious/political views onto anyone, so kindly do the same for me.

And do not accuse someone of being christian homophobes simply because they disagree with your stance. I think homosexualism is wrong, but I'm not afraid of it, or hate homosexuals - anyone who claims that they, as Christian and because of their belief in God, oppose homosexualism and at the same time hate them, is hippocritical.

Actually most of ther homosexuals that I have known pretty much avoid an "us and them" mentality. Most of the ones I've personally known seem to be fairly perceptive about how far they can go with regards to talking about their gender persuasion.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by MrFun
It's unfair of you to demand that gays, lesbians, and bisexuals do away with Gay Pride events, which is only one vehicle to socialize among members of their own minority group.

You may disagree with what I am going to say... but there is a minority of people (bible thumpers, etc) out there who hate the GLBT minority... wouldn't having such vivid parades increase the hatred amongst those people and in the end be retroactive?

I personally would avoid the parades because it would be way too much for me.

[Leo826]

In my opinion, I dont think homosexuality is wrong and I dont think that homosexuals should be segrigated. Everyone has their own beleifs and customs, and if they want to be gay, nothing is standing in their way.

However, I do not think it's right that some gays shove it in our faces that they are gay.

As for abortion, I think it should be allowed because it is the mother's body, and, she has the right to do anything she wants to her own body.


As for murdering, I think that it is definitley punnishable. Before I state my reasons, I'd have to say that I do not beleive in a god or gods or heaven. So, that person that is killed is robbed of his life, he's not going to "heaven". His life is over. He had years left of his life to enjoy, and the murderer took it from him. It's not right.

[mindseye]

because stereotypes are handy where you can't be bothered to acquire better info
(...)You are quick to equal stereotyping with bigotry, btw. (...) Also, you seem to hold the belief that stereotyping as such is bad - and I'm not so sure I agree.

Well, given that the majority of stereotypes are negative ones, anyone who readily accepts them or considers them "handy" would seem to betray a willingness to accept the worst characterizations of the group in question. I would think that the fact that most stereotypes are by definition grotesque generalizations renders them something less than "handy" unless one already has a predisposition or axe of some sort to grind.

I hold a number of stereotypes as to the interests and behaviours of people who live in rural areas.

I grew up in a very rural area and - trust me on this one - there are some very cherished stereotypes as to the interests and behaviors of people just like you.

From the several hundered people I know by name, there is exactly one who I know is gay.

Why does this not shock me? Maybe some of those "handy" stereotypes are getting in the way.

But while it (PDAs) may require more courage, it's also a much better way of conveying a positive image of homosexuality than all the gay parades in the world. If I was grand poo-bah of any national organization of gays, I'd certainly try to push for members doing this instead.

I'll let you in on a little secret - this is exactly how gays won most of their acceptance. Sure, the parades and protests played a part, but it wasn't until large numbers of gay neighbors, co-workers, teachers, etc started living their lives more openly that the rest of the world started getting over their stereotypes. No Grand Poo-bah advice needed, we already learned this one on our own.

I still don't see why there can('t) be a gay parade where every participant looks and behaves like a respectable member of the society while still making it abundandly clear they're gays - hold hands, wear pink three-pice suits, whatever. Just keep the genitals to themselves.

I've been to seventeen San Francisco Gay Pride Parades, and I can tell you that by far the overwhelming majority of marchers belong to groups like gay accountants, gay phone company employees, gay policemen, gay attorneys, gay marching bands, gay insurance adjusters, gay clog dancers, etcetera ad nauseum - not to mention the myriad of straights, politicians, city employees, and so on. In fact, if the truth be known, gay parades can be downright boring! In San Francisco, they can be over three and a half hours long! That's an awful lot of gay accountants.

And you know what? I honestly don't recall seeing a single exposed penis in all those parades. Sure, I've seen plenty of breasts and bare arses, but I don't recall a single penis. Occasional bawdy nuns on roller skates, yes. Penises? No. You seem rather too determined to make an awful lot out of a pretty small minority of marchers.

You also seem to have an exceptionally difficult time understanding how enforcing strict codes of "respectable" behavior might not fly with members of an oppressed minority enjoying that one day when they can celebrate openly on the streets. This is not a Memorial Day parade, for heaven's sake - it's a parade to celebrate the liberalization of an oppressed sexual minority. These are people who in my lifetime were truncheoned by cops just for daring to visit a discrete gay bar.

Is it all that surprising that there might be a few over-the-toppers among all those gay accountants marching in their business suits? Can you not grasp why people who have spent lives being harrassed, scorned, taunted, fired and beaten for being who they are, might not necessarily feel a need to meet your standards of "respectability" on their one special day of celebration? And is it fair to hold millions of gay doctors, gay farmers, and gay soccer moms responsible for the actions of a handful of yahoos during such a celebration? Sounds to me like you are casting about to satisfy that "handy" stereotype of yours.

In the same manner, why I think gay parades once were a good idea, I think they're harmful to the gay community today

Well, to be completely honest, I think people like you are in a fairly small minority. Most people I know who have seen a parade were not offended - the greater danger is boredom or flat feet.

There are those who will maintain their negative stereotypes, parades or not. Besides, the parades are not primarily for you anyway. They are, first and foremost, a celebration for gay people. You can have no idea of the exhilaration felt by a gay person walking down main street in a crowd of 350,000 other gay people, all openly celebrating who they are. It is hard to describe, but I'd have to say that for me, that sensation was one of the most wonderful feelings I have ever experienced in my life. It's hard for me to imagine giving that up because a few folks are indignant over a parade that's really no worse than Carnival or Mardi Gras. Besides, I suspect the greatest "harm" caused by parades are to those looking for re-inforcement of their stereotypes anyway. Cancelling or strictly regulating the parades for those few seems a frightful cost to pay for that one magnificent day.

the admittedly fringe behaviour going on there simply has no hetero counterpart.

Guess you've never been to a Carnival parade in San Francisco (not to mention Rio), or a Mardi Gras parade in New Orleans ("Show us your tits!").