Morocco invades Spain!

[Saint Marcus]

Great response Giani-pet!

Sorry , Saint Marcus , Fez needs all the help he can get , fighting such a trolling monstrosity as you.

I guess you're right. I'm almost feeling sorry for the poor bloke.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


Great response Giani-pet!

I am pretty straight-forward with my responses.

I guess you're right. I'm almost feeling sorry for the poor bloke.

I am not arguing with arbitrary statements.

[DeepO]

Fez, I find this a bit offending, I'm stating my sources, I even said I was off in my initial post, I don't understand where your critism is coming from. If you think I'm bending the thruth, okay, but I can's see any reason to. It certainly was not my intention.

Originally posted by Fez
CIA says 23%. Travel.dk.com/wdr says about the same. Spain's unemployment just fell to single digit numbers recently... 9%. But there still isn't enough jobs for immigrants.

If you believe the CIA, you show that you aren't as perceptive as I thought you were. If you believe every number that is copied by any guide straight from the world fact book, you're dumber than I thought. The CIA world fact book is no bible, you know, it only reflects what countries want other countries to believe. Those are official cyphers, and have little relevance to the real situation. I don't know the real numbers, but 23% is just bullocks. If you visit Morocco, and can say, without any blinking of the eye, that unemployment in Morocco is just 23%, you're either ignorant or dumb. 40% is rather low, but an acceptable number. 1 in 5 is too low, even if I only have circumctential evidence to show for it.

I really don't know where you are getting these numbers from. Morocco has one of the more functioning economies in Africa after Tunisia.

I can't say where I got that number from, I think lonely planet was part of the source. Other than that, I've seen quite a few sites (unofficial, I admit) where they handled those numbers. When I visited the region, I found them very low, and thought they should have been higher. I might have been a tourist (although the term tourist is not known in the region, it is occupied territory and thus everybody becomes an observer, not a tourist), but I wanted to be a bit conservative, without people stumbling on the exact numbers. After all, they are impossible to guess when over half of the inhabitants are not properly registered.

But just when you want to fight my opinion on this one, in Belgium every woman is considered fit for work, while in the Sahara I found only very few exceptions were women did work. When assuming that half of the possible workforce is female, and no women work, how can you get to 23% of the people being employed?

Our unemployment rate is still high in Spain (9%) and another thing is 4 out of 10 immigrants in Spain are detained or arrested according to an recent article in El Pais.

Sure, who's fighting that? 50% of the immigrant die when trying the crossing, maybe 40% is detained after a while (let's say in the next 6 months after their arrival), but still it is a huge number of people. It is a problem that many countries worry about, and Spain is only one of them (and maybe not the most restricting of the EU countries). It was Spain who made a point of this in their recent EU governmentship, and rightfully so, many people are worried, and want to have a solution to the (illegal) immigrant problem. I like Spain, but please don't tell me that Spain is the only country trying to battle the problem, and surely don't tell me that Spain is the best country in battling the illegal immigrants... that's just naive.

DeepO

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by DeepO
Fez, I find this a bit offending, I'm stating my sources, I even said I was off in my initial post, I don't understand where your critism is coming from. If you think I'm bending the thruth, okay, but I can's see any reason to. It certainly was not my intention.

I am sorry I misinterpreted the structure of your language...

If you believe the CIA, you show that you aren't as perceptive as I thought you were. If you believe every number that is copied by any guide straight from the world fact book, you're dumber than I thought.

I am dumb? Gee thanks for that... I thought you were putting stats up? Well I was... so that makes me dumb? This is rather tiring.

The CIA world fact book is no bible, you know, it only reflects what countries want other countries to believe.

The CIA is not in other countries but the US.

I don't know the real numbers, but 23% is just bullocks. If you visit Morocco, and can say, without any blinking of the eye, that unemployment in Morocco is just 23%, you're either ignorant or dumb.

I have been to Morocco and respectfully disagree.

When I visited the region, I found them very low, and thought they should have been higher. I might have been a tourist (although the term tourist is not known in the region, it is occupied territory and thus everybody becomes an observer, not a tourist), but I wanted to be a bit conservative, without people stumbling on the exact numbers. After all, they are impossible to guess when over half of the inhabitants are not properly registered.

Bingo, so why are you arguing with me?

When assuming that half of the possible workforce is female, and no women work, how can you get to 23% of the people being employed?

That is the way it is in most Arab countries with the sole exception of Tunisia. Tunisia has pursued unprecendented rights for women but has brutally supressed Islamic fundamenlist movements.

Sure, who's fighting that? 50% of the immigrant die when trying the crossing, maybe 40% is detained after a while (let's say in the next 6 months after their arrival), but still it is a huge number of people.

And it is a fact most of them get very low paying jobs in Spain like sweeping up the streets because they can't get the good jobs. 4 out of 10 immigrants are detained and most of those detained are deported.

I like Spain, but please don't tell me that Spain is the only country trying to battle the problem, and surely don't tell me that Spain is the best country in battling the illegal immigrants... that's just naive.

Spain surely has the biggest problem with immigrants deporting up to 100,000 last year since they lack proper documents. And never once have I said it was only isolated to Spain.

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
Spain:
Debt - external: $90 billion (1993 est.)

Holland:
Debt - external: $0

external?????

The % of national debt/GDP it is a better ratio.

I am sure that you know, but you present the information by the way

Anyhow, the numbers of the Dutch economy are better, of course, but you are comparing different units...

The size of a country in an integrated economy is a important factor (Luxembourg, Ireland...)

[Ecthy]

Blah, blah, blah. Can't your countries just go to war with each other? We'll see who wins.

[DeepO]

Fez, sorry about the tone of my post last night, I was a bit drunk from celebrating the anniversary of a dear friend of mine. I should stop posting on the net when I come back from a bar.... I want to reply (properly this time), but have to hurry to my job, I'm already late. Later....
DeepO

[Ecthy]

Did you get laid at that party? Now that'd be an excuse...

[DeepO]

If I got laid there, I sure as hell wouldn't come here discussing the situation in Morocco!

Fez, you're right that I didn't make good points, however I fear this is becoming a very empty discussion. You believe your points, I believe mine, and as we probably can't convince the other there is little need to go into it further. However (without making new points), a few clarifications of things I was not too clear about:

I was only mentioning the almost total unemployment of women to show that 23% is a number that was probably given by a government which believe that unemployment rates should be total number of working males divided by total number of total males (of the right age, and not counting the disabled and stuff like that). Otherwise, it should for sure be higher then 50%. My note on unregistered people should also be seen in the same context: when there is no social security system, nobody feels the urge to register as unemployed, and thus is not included in statistics. In Europe the numbers are quite accurate, but even in the US they're just educated guesses (for years the US said to not have any unemployed ). We can't make accurate claims about it, and therefore I'll stop doing so. My apologies.

What I was referring to when I said that you can't believe the numbers when you would visit the country, is that even for tourists it is clear that the number of unemployed people, and highly educated people doing crappy jobs is very high, much higher then that 23% suggests. And I don't know if you visited the Western Sahara (probably not, as they receive some 20 tourists a year in Laayoune), but there the tourist facade is dropped, and you are in the middle of the misery of those people. I can't guess accurately at unemployment rates, I'm not a social worker on a mission to fully study the situation, but judging from the jobs of the Saharaoui I've met (which were one lifeguard, one barkeeper, and one guy with a tv shop out of several hundreds of people) I can only guess that it is very bad. A job is a status symbol there, like we buy sportcars. We got into this discussion because I wanted to say that I can understand the people are so desperate that they want to flea their homes, and risk their lives getting to some dream-country, where everything seems to be possible. Saharaoui would, in general, be pleased if they could sweep the streets, even if they are trained as engineers. That disgusts me, I got a whole other sympathy for (illegal) immigrants.

Lastly, I did not want to say you implied Spain had the only problem (I know I wrote it, though), but I wanted to say that Spain had a big problem being an entry point for illegals. I support Spain in that indeed all countries should somehow share the burden, and am sorry that the last Euro-top did not give better results. But, maybe your media didn't mentioned this, in our media it was said many times that multiple countries did not agree on how Spain currently is battling the illegal flow, even if there has been considerable improvement the last years.

BTW, Belgium has a huge problem as well, we are a big transit country what illegals are concerned (especially towards Great Brittain). Here much needs to be improved as well, if only to get the wind out of the sails of those extreme right parties that are winning more and more votes each election.
DeepO

[Giancarlo]

Then I guess we have nothing more to discuss. The only point I was making is that Morocco is probably one of the more functioning economies in northern Africa after Tunisia. Morocco has chronic underemployment as you have said.

Other countries criticizing the way we handle illegals? Hmm... they can have their opinions because we will continuing doing what we feel like. Sure, statistics say every 4 out of 10 immigrants are detained and most of those detained are deported because improper documentation but at least we have a plan.

[Ecthy]

Did you get laid then, Gian?