Morocco invades Spain!

[Estilpón]

Spain doesn't claim the sovereignty of this rock. It claims a few civilized manners of solving conflicts...

This rock (only this) must be a morrocan territory... BUT WITHOUT FORCE!!!!



I'm sorry your language, but not more than your ignorance

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Estilpón
This rock (only this) must be a morrocan territory... BUT WITHOUT FORCE!!!!

I'd hardly call 6 soldiers a use of force.

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
...and hypocritical.

what about Guantánamo?

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I'd hardly call 6 soldiers a use of force.

is it a consequence of an agreement? NO
are they a militar members? YES --> use of force

[Sprayber]

This whole dispute reminds me of another set of bickering children.

http://www-cgi.cnn.com/WORLD/9601/turkey_greece_dispute/

January 30, 1996
Web posted at: 11:20 a.m. EST (1620 GMT)

ATHENS, Greece (CNN) -- Greek and Turkish naval forces shadowed each other in the eastern Aegean Sea Tuesday, as conflicting claims intensified between the governments over an unpopulated 10-acre islet.

The two countries called on each other to pull back rival warships around the disputed territory.

In Ankara, the Greek ambassador was summoned to the foreign ministry where Turkey called "for the immediate withdrawal of Greek ships" from around the tiny rock island.

In Athens, Defense Minister Gerassimos Arsenis said, "We do not want escalation of the crisis. If the other side is sincere and also wants de-escalation, it should remove its (military) presence from the area, from our waters, from our airspace."


There were reports that the entire Greek fleet was ordered to sail toward the Dodecanese island chain in the eastern Aegean, where the islet is located. But, the Defense Ministry press office would only say that some ships were in the area. Air force jets were ready to take off within two minutes, if necessary, military sources said.

Arsenis said a Turkish frigate and helicopter had violated Greek air and sea space early Tuesday around the islet, which Greece calls Imia and Turkey calls Kardak. Greek forces warned the frigate to turn back, Arsenis said. No warning shots were fired.

"The islet of Imia is Greek and it is the responsibility of the armed forces to defend Greek territory, and they are in a position to defend it," Arsenis said.

On Monday, Greek Premier Costas Simitis warned Turkey that Greece would not tolerate questioning of its sovereign rights. Turkish Prime Minister Tansu Ciller responded similarly, demanding that Greek forces be withdrawn and that the Greek flag be taken down from the island.

"Turkey will by no means give up its sovereignty rights," Ciller said. "It is part of Turkey's territory. . . . We will put our full decisiveness behind it."

The crisis between the two NATO allies appears to be their worst since 1987 when they nearly went to war after Turkey tried to send an oil-drilling ship into disputed waters in the Aegean.


In 1974, the two sides narrowly escaped another clash after Turkey invaded and occupied the northern part of Cyprus, an independent Mediterranean island populated by people of Turkish and Greek descent.

The islet is made up of two barren rocks spanning 10 acres. The conflicting claims emerged late last month after a Turkish ship ran aground near the islet and refused assistance from the Greek coast guard, saying it was on Turkish territory.

The Turkish government backed the ship's claim that the island was Turkish. The Greeks promptly gave notice that the island was theirs.

The low-level dispute remained a diplomatic one for nearly a month. But last Wednesday, a private Greek television station, Antenna TV, reported on the situation, giving rise to news stories in the Greek media about Turkish commandos invading Greece.

Turkey has called for a dialogue to settle the issue, and the broader question of air and sea rights. Greece says there is nothing to discuss and that the islet belongs to it under a 1947 convention in which Italy ceded the Dodecanese islands to Greece. Italy had taken them from Turkey under an agreement in 1932.

The islet is about 12 miles from the Greek island of Kalimnos and nearly four miles off the Turkish coast.

[DeepO]

Originally posted by faded glory
I dont know much about the nation. Other than the island disputes. Ive heard its very liberal for that part of the world. Again, I doubt it will lead to war. Im not laughing either, its a serouis matter. But these things happen, wars happen, disputes happen.

Indeed, wars happen. But I would be very sorry if war breaks out, I made a lot of friends there when I visited the country. And as most of them are Saharaoui, I know they will feel it hardest of all inhabitants.

Just some background info: the current king Hassan II has only been king for a few years now, after his father Mohammed VI died. Most people see his reign as a mixed blessing, he did many things to battle corruption and encourage tourism (a great deal of the nation's income comes from 'European' Moroccans visiting their mother country each summer). But so far, he hasn't got any military conquests on his curriculum. His father conquered the Western Sahara, and that did bring many lucrative deals with a.o. the US due to rich mineral deposits, the Sahara is the largest phosphate mine of the world.

It would be a logical move of him to consolidate his position as a king by conquering some territory, and there are really only two options for this: Algeria or the Spanish enclaves. The Spanish enclaves are very symbolic, so could be target of choice, and would probably be an easier target then Algeria, as that country is very fundamentalistic and military. But of course he should be careful not to get the EU into the conflict, as those countries are the biggest trade partners of Morocco.

Hassan could use the new inforced immigration policy of the EU as a cover up, like they were claiming they needed Perejil for battling illegal immegration. After all, Ceuta is known as one of the main entry points into the EU for all African immigrants, making it Moroccan would solve that problem (or at least shift the geographical position of immegration) So he could gain two things at once: the liking of his people because he finally removed the thorn that has been bothering them since independance, while gaining the favor of the EU because of his 'active immegration war'. I guess Spain is going to get it hard defending its position, even if Ceuta has been Spanish territory for centuries.

DeepO

[Giancarlo]

Morocco's military is very miniscule compared to that of Spain, in both numbers and quality. Spain's military as a whole beats Morocco in every branch period!

Anyways here are the exacts:

Spain

Army
210 AMX-30 Battle Tanks
131 M-48A5E Battle Tanks
211 M-60 Battle Tanks
108 Leopard 2A4 Battle Tanks

Airforce
Eurofighter EF 2000 - 87 (on order) int/attack
EF-18A/B Hornet - 83/12 int/attack/trng
RF-4C Phantom - 14 recon
Mirage F1C/E/B - 66 int/attack/trng
SF-5B/SRF-5A 22/2 - FGA/trng/recon
P-3A/B Orion - 2/5 MR/ASW
F-27 400MPA - 3 SAR/coast patrol
B 707- 320B/C - 3/1 trans/tanker
C-130H/H-30/KC-130H - 6/1/5 trans/tanker
CASA-235/M - 20 trans

And some more I didn't list....

Source - http://www.alphalink.com.au/~bjordan/airforce20.htm

Navy
1 Principe de Asturias VSTOL aircraft carrier
1 Alvaro de Bazan AEGIS class destroyers (I think it is combat ready, three more planned for later)
6 Santa Maria (Perry) class frigates
5 Baleares (Knox) class frigates (Modified and Upgraded)
4 Descubierta class light ASW frigates
4 S-80 class submarines (Planned)
4 Galerna (Agosta) class submarines (Improved)
4 Delfin (Daphne) class submarines
2 Galicia class amphibious transport docks
2 Hernan Cortes (Newport) class large landing ships
1 Chilreu offshore patrol vessel
1 Descubierta patrol ship
2 Alboran class offshore patrol vessels
4 Serviola class offshore patrol vessels
10 Anaga class fisheries patrol boats
6 Barcelo class coastal patrol boats

Some not listed.

Source: http://www.hazegray.org

Morocco

Army
224 M-48A5 Battle Tanks
300 M-60 A1/A3 Battle Tanks

Airforce
Mirage F.1 CH/EH - 15/14 Int/attack/trng
F-5 E/F - 16/4 FGA/trng
F-5 A/B - 10/2 FGA/trng
RF-5A - 2 Recon
OV-10A - 4 COIN/FAC
Alpha Jet - 23 Attack/trng
SA 342L Gazelle - 24 Anti-tank/COIN

Some others not listed.

http://www.alphalink.com.au/~bjordan/airforce42.html

Navy
2 Mohammed V (Floreal) class small patrol frigates (Planned 2002-2003)
1 Lt. Col. Errhamani (Descubierta class) light ASW frigate (Spanish Built - Where are the parts gonna come from now?
1 Sidi Mohammed Ben Abdallah (Newport class) large landing ship
3 Daoud Ben Aicha (Champlain) class small landing ships
1 Lt. Malghagh (EDIC type) utility landing craft
5 Rais Bargach class (OPV 64 type) patrol corvettes
4 El Lahiq (Osprey 55) class large patrol boats
2 Okba class (PR-72 type) large patrol boats
6 Lt. De Vaisseau Rabhi (Vigilance) class large patrol boats (Spanish Built)
4 Commandant Al Khattabi class large patrol boats (Spanish Built)

The ones not saying Spanish Built where built in France.

http://www.hazegray.org/worldnav/africa/morocco.htm

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by DeepO
Ceuta is known as one of the main entry points into the EU for all African immigrants...

are you sure?

The immigrants arrive to Spain crossing the sea by small boats, named 'pateras', not across Ceuta...
_____________________________

two good posts,

[Giancarlo]

http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/18/spain.morocco/index.html

Spain is offering to withdraw if Morocco promises not to retake the island. If they do not make that promise they can see 90% of their foreign aid go down the drain in the near future most of which they probably spend on their military. Also much of their military is Spanish built (navy at least) and would run the risk of being left without parts. And the poll there is worth noticing.

[Victor Galis]

This reminds me of act IV scene 4 from Hamlet...

Captain
Truly to speak, and with no addition,
We go to gain a little patch of ground
That hath in it no profit but the name.
To pay five ducats, five, I would not farm it;
Nor will it yield to Norway or the Pole
A ranker rate, should it be sold in fee.

HAMLET
Why, then the Polack never will defend it.

Captain
Yes, it is already garrison'd.

HAMLET
Two thousand souls and twenty thousand ducats
Will not debate the question of this straw:
This is the imposthume of much wealth and peace,
That inward breaks, and shows no cause without
Why the man dies. I humbly thank you, sir.

[Timexwatch]

Originally posted by Fez
Morocco's military is very miniscule compared to that of Spain, in both numbers and quality. Spain's military as a whole beats Morocco in every branch period!

*Clip*

They also have them beat in ****-waving pride....

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Timexwatch


They also have them beat in ****-waving pride....

Now what is wrong with that?

[DeepO]

Originally posted by Estilpón
are you sure?

The immigrants arrive to Spain crossing the sea by small boats, named 'pateras', not across Ceuta...

I'm sorry I was not very clear, there is a difference between the two. Ceuta is known to other European countries as a choke point, I thought I heard it had the most asylum requests of all European cities. (Was on the Belgian news when the European top on immigration was happening) Even if the borders are very well guarded, many people get in, and can't be sent back to Morocco, as they do not want to accept them. Most of them are African, not necessarily Moroccan, and paid a lot of money to have a chance of entering the EU.

The little boats (pateras? nice to know the Spanish term for them!) are a different problem, many of the people on those boats are purely illegal, economic refugees, and have no intention to ask for asylum. There are many more people who want to cross the straight of Gibraltar like that, but they do not all land in the same spot, and thus the concentration is smaller...

A bit off topic; quite a few of the friends I made in Morocco already had such a boat trip, and were sent back, and one of them I heard died this year in an unsuccesful attempt. Seeing the amount of misery in the Sahara made me have a completely new understanding of their situation. In the whole of Morocco, unemployment rates vary around 50%, while for the Saharaoui it is well over 90%... just one of the repression tactics the Moroccan government uses. In that situation, I too might be tempted to take a 50% risk of dying on a boat, fleaing to the 'rich' world

DeepO

[Estilpón]

Originally posted by Estilpón
The immigrants arrive to Spain crossing the sea by small boats, named 'pateras', not across Ceuta...

DeepO:
Sorry, I'm speaking about illegal immigrants

[Giancarlo]

Deepo, most stats say Morocco's unemployment rate is between 20-25%, not 50%. CIA Factbook, Travel.dk.com/wdr...