Rugby - The beautiful game

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I still cannot rationalise how the ABs lost this – they should have wrapped it up with their dominance in the first 30 of the second half.

Simple, IMHO! They kept kicking the pill away! The Wallabies just kept bringing it back. Sooner or later, the defence had to crack, even only slightly. It's beyond me why Mitchell didn't get a message out to them - have a run occasionally! Give it to Umaga once in a while - he's going like a train when he gets it in his mitts!

Well you have to finger the conditions – because for a game between the nominal one and two in the world - NZ and Aus in that order for Neostars benefit – it was terrible handling.

You can't blame the conditions for many - if any - of the Wallaby errors. Some of it was pressure, the rest just poor timing and coordination.

But he does deliver a classic “who, me sir?”, I’ll give him that.

Or whatever that phrase might be in his native tongue. I'm not about to ask him either.

Good grief – above and beyond the call that. The game Saturday was a 10am kick off which I can just about cope with, but 3am?

When one lives at the arse-end of the world, one becomes used to getting up at ridiculous times. OTOH, if one lived in the real world - as you do - one could keep normal hours.

Just in case though our next game is 9th November against NZ who have finally stopped avoiding us. Then I’m sure you will be up on the 16th to see us take you on?

I'll be up with m'Bovril and bells on!

I won't publicly agree with any of your copious advice to NeoStar. I'd hate to set a precedent!

But I still don't get the Fez thing. To which club does it relate? Or not at all?

[Havak]

Just to try and quickly tackle the Fez thing – well the clubs name is Saracens which of course references the crusades. Fez I understand is associated with both Islam and that silly type of hat. Therefore Saracens fans wear the fez - the "Fez boys" are a subset of fan at that club that are totally nuts IMO.

It is complicated however by the fact that the late and much missed English comedy-magician Tommy Cooper used to wear a fez and would wave his arms in front of him and say “just like that” when doing his act. Saracens fans therefore also wave their hands in front of them when they take penalties and salute successful ones with the affirmation “just like that”

Yes it’s dead weird all right, but it’s not my club. We are sane(ish) at Leicester.

[finbar]

All sounds blissfully eccentric to me. I love that stuff. Doesn't happen here. Not that I'm applying for Saracens membership, of course. Actually, I'd better find a Pom club to support. I'd better start looking around.

It sh*ts me enormously, of course, that the greatest colours in the world have been purloined ... mmm ... been there and done that one. Anyway, I'll do some research and get back to you.

BTW, I loved Tommy Cooper. So enormously skilled, apart from his delightful presence. You don't get away with his "act" unless you're enormously skilled.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Cal - it turns out to be the other way round. You've got them at Durban at (basically) sea level, we've got them at altitude at Jo'burg.

Hopefully that bodes well for the All Blacks then. I have a feeling they wont let the Tri-nations slip from their grasp. For some reason the Tri-nations means more to me than the Bledisloe.

Originally posted by NeoStar
the Wallabies dominate rugby so entirely.

If they dominated entirely they wouldnt have lost in Christchurch, and they would have beaten the All Blacks by more than 2 points in Sydney. Also they would have beaten the Springboks by a greater margin than the All Blacks. And who is at the top of the Zurich world rankings? Thats right, the All Blacks.

Perhaps you should take note of this part of my new sig:
"Men who prefer optimistic illusions to reality can never become wise".

[Havak]

It's beyond me why Mitchell didn't get a message out to them - have a run occasionally!

Have to agree with that. I suspect he will learn from the experience at least.

You can't blame the conditions for many - if any - of the Wallaby errors. Some of it was pressure, the rest just poor timing and coordination.

Which makes it all the more flabbergasting that the worlds number one team did not capitalise on it?

I won't publicly agree with any of your copious advice to NeoStar. I'd hate to set a precedent!

I’m assuming he was tongue in cheek. He reminds me of the English fans who leave Twickers after a good English win with delusions of lifting the RWC in Australia. Carried away on Adrenaline

If I’m wrong, and he was in earnest, then I guess I’ll get a tongue lashing at some point.

Not that I'm applying for Saracens membership, of course

I should hope not! Actually the Fez lads are good fun to be at a game with – but can be a little much at times. I’m not a fan of the way the club has tried (and failed) to purchase success but it’s hard core fans are solid rugger disciples.

As for the club for you to back – I’m assuming you want one with a real chance of toppling Tigers? Could I therefore suggest Sale or Gloucester who finished 2nd and 3rd respectively last time out?

Sadly I can't see us dropping the colours after 122 years.

Spot on about Tommy btw.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
Well there is a healthy tradition of huge Kiwi backs after all.

I broke my finger once when I tackled some guy who was twice my size. It was worth it though, he fell awfully hard on a hard-packed patch of ground. Ahhh...memories...

I still cannot rationalise how the ABs lost this – they should have wrapped it up with their dominance in the first 30 of the second half. But they seemed to freeze. Picking on one player –the number 8 (Robertson?) – awesome last time out but last Saturday he looked like a schoolboy well out his depth?

What is this hoodoo the Aussies have over Kiwis just now?

I think Finbar explained it pretty well. I expect to see a lot more running rugby from them in SA as they will be trying for that 4-try bonus point.

Not only that, but I think if Oz & NZ end up being tied on tri-nations points, it will come down to points scored for vs against. Is that right Finbar?

For Caligastia's benefit since he first put me on to Jack I have been very impressed with him - even in defeat Saturday. I could hjave handled him being born English.

It will be great to see how he does against the England team. Also it will give you a chance to compare him with your beloved forwards.

Good grief – above and beyond the call that. The game Saturday was a 10am kick off which I can just about cope with, but 3am? Just in case though our next game is 9th November against NZ who have finally stopped avoiding us. Then I’m sure you will be up on the 16th to see us take you on?

Australia beware! The 16th is Caligastia's birthday, and I cant think of a better birthday present than seeing the Wallabies lose.

I’m glad you used a smilie, but allow me to defend the Kiwis here and point out the major failing of some Aussie fans– short memory and a skewed perspective.

Theyve waited for so long to see a decent period of success from the Wallabies that when it finally happens, the euphoria floods through their tiny brains and causes the already overloaded cells to completely alter their perception of reality!

The Kiwis are very much in a rebuilding phase.

We have been ever since losing Fitzy, Bunce, and Zinzan all in one go.

And “dominate rugby”. Don’t make me laugh please. One extremely narrow ground out win against the worlds number one does not let you take their place.

You haven’t beaten a top five team in Europe that I can recall since France failed to turn up for the last WC final in 99 – you don’t dominate a sport unless you turn over the other top teams every time, and it’s what, three weeks since the ABs beat you?

I sure do like you Havak.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Which makes it all the more flabbergasting that the worlds number one team did not capitalise on it?

What does "the world's #1 team" mean these days? I noticed that ranking on the Zurich list. This isn't a facetious question, it's something I'd really like to know. The ABs won 9 in a row but half of those were against Italy, Ireland and Fiji. How are the rankings determined?

Anyway, in answer to your question - as rhetorical as it is - the ABs coughed it up about a dozen times, too. As you saw. And as you remarked upon. And, at the risk of repeating myself, as soon as they got possession, they kicked the bloody thing away again. They basically played to our strength. We should have had at least two more tries - the disallowed one, obviously, and one when Matt Rogers spilled the ball with the tryline beckoning.

What I still can't put my finger on is the flat spots the Wallabies are suffering. It happened again in the second half the other night. They troop into the sheds at halftime having had the better of the first half. They come out, land on the back foot, and it takes them 30 minutes to get back on the front foot. I wish I knew what the problem is. I'm sure Eddie's wishing the same thing!

I’m assuming he was tongue in cheek.

He was taking the p*ss.

Actually the Fez lads are good fun to be at a game with – but can be a little much at times.

I'd've thought a couple of hundred Tommy Coopers might become a tad wearing after a while.

As for the club for you to back – I’m assuming you want one with a real chance of toppling Tigers? Could I therefore suggest Sale or Gloucester who finished 2nd and 3rd respectively last time out?

I'll investigate them. I suppose it's too early to tell Bath's future with the Australian Mafia onboard. I know that M. Foley was looking for a coaching role with the Reds but they basically told him to nick off and get some experience. I suppose Bath were willing to take the punt. He was certainly acknowledged here as having a good rugby brain.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
For some reason the Tri-nations means more to me than the Bledisloe.

The briefest glance at the honour roll over the last 5 years tells us why.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Not only that, but I think if Oz & NZ end up being tied on tri-nations points, it will come down to points scored for vs against. Is that right Finbar?

I would imagine so. It's the standard means of separating teams. At this point, on that basis, the ABs would have their noses well in front after their margin against the Boks in NZ. The Wallabies letting the Boks back into our game could cost us.

I sure do like you Havak.

A little corner of NYC puts up its hand to join the EU.

[finbar]

Absolutely bizarre news this morning. Two streakers - painted up to advertise Vodaphone - interrupted the game on Saturday night. It turns out that Vodaphone - Wallaby main sponsors - knew it - or something, anyway - was going to happen. And, apparently, had already agreed to pay any fines incurred as a result of the incident.

Now, it's hard to determine exactly how much Vodaphone knew about what was going to happen. Vodaphone's MD claims that Vodaphone was approached days prior to the game by someone prepared to perform some sort of "stunt" at the game that would promote Vodaphone. Vodaphone's MD says they didn't know what the stunt involved, but agreed to cover any resulting fines. The streakers both claim that Vodaphone didn't know they were going to streak.

I suspect Vodaphone knew they were going to streak. Why else would they guarantee to cover any resulting fines? Well, even if they didn't know it was going to be a streak, they obviously knew it would be something that involved running onto the field and disrupting the game.

The police obviously suspect Vodaphone knew about the streaking, because they're looking into charging Vodaphone's MD over the matter. The pre-arrangement to cover the fines is damning evidence of involvement.

Vodaphone, this morning, admits to "an error of judgement". The ARU "has acceped an apology".

My only comfort in all this is the knowledge that Vodaphone is an English company.

[NeoStar]

Originally posted by finbar

I doubt the team for SA is finalised yet. There was speculation that Rogers would replace Latham. There seemed to be a thought that while Latham lacks nothing in his attacking skills, his positional play can leave some holes. Anyway, Larkham can punt the ball just as far as Latham if the need arises.

Your right - I'm getting ahead of myself, the game's ages away. I also reckon Latham can be sloppy in defense - and Larkham can kick at his level any day. We're a bit too reliant on him, though

Originally posted by finbar
Careful, NS, the bigger the statement, the bigger the fall.

What? Arn't the Wallabies loved and respected here...

Originally posted by Havak
Wrong, right and utterly wrong. Listen to Finbar’s advice.

I’m glad you used a smilie, but allow me to defend the Kiwis here and point out the major failing of some Aussie fans– short memory and a skewed perspective. The Kiwis are very much in a rebuilding phase. Historically they enjoy far the better record between you, and given the cyclical nature of rugby, they will return to dominance again (next year being my bet). Even now they are more likely to win the tri-nations as their record against RSA in RSA is better than yours.

Now calm and co-ordinated? Yes it’s strength but it isn’t a strength you consistently travel with (do you recall how you panicked against the Boks away last year?). Gregans troops also looked very out of sort last time out in both England and France when the forwards couldn’t get their hands on the ball. In my experience the Wallabies are awesomely calm and confident in front of home crowds – they don’t give me the same impression away I have to say – anywhere other than NZ anyway.

And “dominate rugby”. Don’t make me laugh please. One extremely narrow ground out win against the worlds number one does not let you take their place.

You haven’t beaten a top five team in Europe that I can recall since France failed to turn up for the last WC final in 99 – you don’t dominate a sport unless you turn over the other top teams every time, and it’s what, three weeks since the ABs beat you?

Hmm, I'm beginning to detect dislike....

Okay - I never got to watch the Wallabies during the Europe tour (no richboy Fox for me) so I can't speak on that, but you must remember the Wallabies have won about every major rugby trophey in recent years.

Yes..... the All Blacks will rise again , so I'm enjoying our position for the moment. Not all will be lost in the coming years though, we have alot of talent.

Originally posted by finbar
Simple, IMHO! They kept kicking the pill away! The Wallabies just kept bringing it back. Sooner or later, the defence had to crack, even only slightly. It's beyond me why Mitchell didn't get a message out to them - have a run occasionally! Give it to Umaga once in a while - he's going like a train when he gets it in his mitts!

They didn't want to touch it They just lay back and watched the Wallaby comeback with the rest of us!

Originally posted by Caligastia
If they dominated entirely they wouldnt have lost in Christchurch, and they would have beaten the All Blacks by more than 2 points in Sydney. Also they would have beaten the Springboks by a greater margin than the All Blacks. And who is at the top of the Zurich world rankings? Thats right, the All Blacks.

Yeah...but, um - it makes for a better game when is goes down to the wire I'll admit I wasn't too fond of the Springbok performance, they can certainly rise to the occasions in SA but that game was at the Gabba - for a while there I was worried. Note to self - Caligastia and Havak hate Wallabies

BTW, where's this Zurich bloke, I need to have a talk with him...

Originally posted by Havak
I’m assuming he was tongue in cheek. He reminds me of the English fans who leave Twickers after a good English win with delusions of lifting the RWC in Australia. Carried away on Adrenaline

If I’m wrong, and he was in earnest, then I guess I’ll get a tongue lashing at some point.

I'm a delusional being

It was a bit from column A, a bit from column B... Those sort of games do it to you - and thick, naive me not fully understanding the nature of this forum Hmm, I better give you half a lashing. Hey Havak, you seem to love the All Blacks, why don't you talk about your own team?

What was that? Oh yeah, it's England. (Kidding Havak, I have a soft spot for England. Went for them through the entire Soccer WC, but geez, I copped a bit for it!)

Originally posted by finbar Absolutely bizarre news this morning. Two streakers - painted up to advertise Vodaphone - interrupted the game on Saturday night. It turns out that Vodaphone - Wallaby main sponsors - knew it - or something, anyway - was going to happen. And, apparently, had already agreed to pay any fines incurred as a result of the incident...Vodaphone's MD says they didn't know what the stunt involved, but agreed to cover any resulting fines.

Its all over the news here.

The boofhead agreed to pay the 'costs' invloved and they were off! There's uproar because Vodafone is shedding heaps of jobs yet they can pay some idiot thousands in fines to streak with their logo. They better fire that guy to.

Hey finbar -just who is on our side here?

[finbar]

Originally posted by NeoStar
and Larkham can kick at his level any day. We're a bit too reliant on him, though

If the Wallabies choose to favour the style of game they do - built around him - that has to happen. It's what has caused us bother in the past. That's why it's been interesting to see the variations Eddie Jones has introduced this season - swapping Larkham and Gregan, bringing Herbert and Mortlock into first receiver position, et al.

What? Arn't the Wallabies loved and respected here...

Problem is, while we're the World Cup holders, we've been very patchy since. Our last tour was a disaster - which can be justified on the grounds of end-of-season tiredness, loss of key players, et al - but it counts against us. They are also problems every touring team faces. The French had to cope with it recently. It's one thing to perform at home, it's quite another to perform away.

On top of that, we've scraped home in too many recent matches. And, yes, that can be interpreted as commitment - et al - winning through, but a World Champion team should do more than scrape home. [At the same time, I do think we have a psychological advantage over the ABs at the moment. The Christchurch match was a one-off situation thanks to the conditions.]

While it's true that the ABs are obviously rebuilding, I think there's some less obvious rebuilding work going on with the Wallabies. Eddie Jones is definitely trying to change some old - but successful - habits; habits that have passed their use-by date. These things take time. The positive thing, to me, is that the team has got itself well in front of its opponents (on the scoreboard) so often; the problem is that they're letting those opponents back into the game so often.

Note to self - Caligastia and Havak hate Wallabies

Well, it's a tradition, isn't it? But you can add just about every other member of our little ratbag bunch of rugby nuts to the list. The lot of the Wallaby supporter in this thread is a lonely one.

Hmm, I better give you half a lashing. Hey Havak, you seem to love the All Blacks, why don't you talk about your own team?

No! Edit out that last sentence before he sees it! Quickly! I've been blissfully revelling in his complete and utter distraction from filling the ether with Jonno and Wilko! I even got him onto Tommy Cooper for half a second!

[Havak]

Ahhh...memories...

Every bruise, every broken bone earnt in full eh?

It will be great to see how he does against the England team. Also it will give you a chance to compare him with your beloved forwards

I really can’t think of nay bigger chance for him to shine than taking on Johnson. Grewcock and Kay all in one game. I’m sure he will do you credit. To be honest I expect us to shove you around up front somewhat but the key to England-NZ games is always in the backs and I don’t think we are there yet (we might win but our forwards will do it by starving you of ball if so). Watch out for Jason Robinson though – faster than Cullen if not yet quite the same rounded player.

and I cant think of a better birthday present than seeing the Wallabies lose

Well at the risk of upsetting Neostar and Finbar Twickenham is not a happy place for the Wallabies. The only time they have won there in a decade it took a very dubious last minute penalty (1998) – sound familiar at all?

This isn't a facetious question, it's something I'd really like to know

I understand, and I think they are flawed, but all rankings are. After all it was home wins against France and South Africa that allowed you to take 2nd place over a totally dormant England – which lets face it is fairly meaningless unless we play?

I wish I knew what the problem is. I'm sure Eddie's wishing the same thing!

Some times you simply have to accept the opposition gets it right. Whether they did Saturday is debatable. I am worried that sometimes when your boys go in with a lead they relax too much – believing their own press a little too much maybe?

I'd've thought a couple of hundred Tommy Coopers might become a tad wearing after a while.

And there you have hit the nail on the head.

I suppose it's too early to tell Bath's future with the Australian Mafia onboard

Time will tell but I still think they lack in the forwards at the moment – I would expect Sale and Gloucester to provide the biggest threats – maybe Northampton on the side as Smith seems to be getting them into shape.

A little corner of NYC puts up its hand to join the EU.

English Union? He is more than welcome. After all there are no neutrals when the wallabies play – just Australians and everyone else.

My only comfort in all this is the knowledge that Vodaphone is an English company.

In actual fact they were ex-communicated after handing out all those free hats and scarves last year to Aussies too tight to buy their own.

What? Arn't the Wallabies loved and respected here...

Respected = yes
Loved = no

Hmm, I'm beginning to detect dislike....

Not at all in fact. Its not about like or dislike – it’s about reality. The Wallabies are a very good side – but they are a long way short of a great side.

but you must remember the Wallabies have won about every major rugby trophy in recent years.

Except the Cook Cup of course – which means much more to an Englishman than the tri-nations!

Not all will be lost in the coming years though, we have a lot of talent.

Hee hee. You will be lucky to hold onto any of it after the world cup. Most of your best players are looking at European pensions.

Note to self - Caligastia and Havak hate Wallabies

Actually I don’t at all – as a team I respect them immensely for over-punching their weight all the time.

But they simply are not as good as your media tries to make you believe as that bubble needs pricking IMO.

Kidding Havak, I have a soft spot for England. Went for them through the entire Soccer WC, but geez, I copped a bit for it!)

Heh this was brave of you – I know what this must have brought down on you.

You can rip England Rugby if you like – I can handle it (indeed I’m used to it). Do keep in mind though you are two straight losses against us and you chances of gaining the Cook cup back before RWC are very slim indeed – Twickenham is a real fortress these days (last cap match loss to NZ in RWC 99).

England may have been a joke to SH teams in the past but I can assure you Jones and Mitchell will not take them lightly in November.

What bothers me in all this is Finbar put it more rationally than me in his post following yours – bah humbug!

I've been blissfully revelling in his complete and utter distraction from filling the ether with Jonno and Wilko!

Heh I’ve been trying really hard to be good!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak
But they simply are not as good as your media tries to make you believe as that bubble needs pricking IMO.

I don't think anybody in the world is as good as the Aussie media makes Aussie teams out to be.
I'd attribute a great deal of that, however, to both internal competition from both AFL and the "other" rugby (which shall not be mentioned by name lest it offend finbars somewhat delicate sensibilities ).
Elsewhere, with less competition (for both fans and players) per head of population, select sports may not be played up quite so much.

[On a (slightly) related note, Soccer Australia - another competitor - well, only among the Italian/Balkan population really - has put in a bid to host the 2014 World Cup. The media has played up their chances without, apparently, realizing that the host nation no longer receives automatic qualification. There might be some red faces around soon. ].

Similarly for other sports - with the hideous performance of Australian athletes/teams in one of the eighties(?) olympics, the government set up their sport institute to rectify the problem and poured untold (I've heard numbers in the hundreds of millions but I can't believe its really that much ) monies into it. They do have to justify it so everything is drastically over-hyped.
Understandable under the circumstances but I just wish that sometimes they'd show a little more moderation in their excesses.

[Havak]

with the hideous performance of Australian athletes/teams in one of the eighties(?) olympics, the government set up their sport institute to rectify the problem and poured untold (I've heard numbers in the hundreds of millions but I can't believe its really that much

Ah I can help here - I 'endured' the Olympic museum attached to the MCG last year and it was actually Montreal (76) I believe - they gained only two medals and subsequently decided "never again". Believe the money side of it as if anything you may have under-estimated the annual spend on 'sporting excellence'.

I have heard rumours that immigrant sportsfolk even get preferential tax status (which would certainly account for the number of naturalised Australians in the Commonwealth games - it really annoyed me to see two Eastern Europeans doing the mens pole vault for them!)

just wish that sometimes they'd show a little more moderation in their excesses.

It's a difficult balance - nothing wrong with celebrating national success but it does get taken over the top on occassion.

All countries do it - the silly jingoistic optimism around England in the soccer world cup annoyed me too - but some Aussies truly 'believe the hype' at times.