New twist to pledge case. Little girl wanted to say 'under God'. Dad used her.

[drake]

Carver, obviously the in-appropriate thread to be talking about Rodney King. Bring it up in the other one if you want to discuss it.

All I'm saying is that people have gotten so ridiculous that they're filing suits to stop people from saying the words "under god". Its absolutely silly.

[Gibsie]

Maybe they're afraid of church and state beocoming desegregated and Christians getting all biblical on their asses- which, let's face it, is far more likely to happen.

[Jon Miller]

eh

no

not in this decade (or in the forseable future

Jon Miller

[Jack the Bodiless]

Originally posted by Lincoln
I don't know. I just wonder why people get so upset hearing about fictious beings? Maybe they only wish that God was not real. I am deeply offended by the way by anyone who would say that God was not real. I might just have to take a double dose of Prozak if that ever happened.

Lincoln, if YOU were expected to stand up and publicly declare that There Is No God: how much Prozac would you need?

[Lincoln]

The beliefs of people are strengthened in adversity if they are sincere. I may retire in Thailand someday. I have no fear of hearing about Buddha night and day.

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
eh

no

not in this decade (or in the forseable future

Jon Miller

But to someone who beleives that there is no god (i.e. the chance is zero), it is infinitely more likely to happen. I don't think any rational atheist is really scared of either thing- that's the point.

[Lemmy]

The beliefs of people are strengthened in adversity if they are sincere. I may retire in Thailand someday. I have no fear of hearing about Buddha night and day.

that's your opinion, and Buddha isn't a god, God supposedly is.

Yea, that's good advice. You should read the question before you respond as well.
The word's in question are 'under God' etc. etc.

and you're saying that doesn't include the word 'God'

[Jac de Molay]

there is no such thing as "unorganized religion"

Sure there is. It's called spirituality

1) It's a point of principle. Atheists should not be compelled or expected to lie. It's like expecting Christians to swear that "there is one God, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet".

Atheists aren't compelled or expected to lie about anything at all. They have full First Amendment protection in omitting God from the pledge, saying "under Satan or Beelzebub", not standing up to say the pledge, and not saying the pledge at all.

[Lincoln]

No, it doesn't include the words 'organized religion'.

[Lemmy]

but God represents a religion, in this case Christianity.

[Lincoln]

Most people of other religions have no problem with the use of the word 'God' even though it historically represents Christianity. I guess they didn't give it much thought. If the pledge contained the words 'under organized religion' then it would clearly be unconctitutional because I think it would imply an established church of some kind.

[-=Vagrant=-]

Replace 'under God' with 'under Odin'. Problem solved.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by DetroitDave
Atheists aren't compelled or expected to lie about anything at all. They have full First Amendment protection in omitting God from the pledge, saying "under Satan or Beelzebub", not standing up to say the pledge, and not saying the pledge at all.

It's a double standard though. 'Under God' is in the pledge officially, other phrases that people might like to put in it are not. The pledge is an affirmation of patriotism, not religion. Because of the pledge's wording it is implied that to be a patriot you also should believe in God.

Imagine how you would feel if the official wording of the pledge was changed to something you didn't want your children exposed to. The point has been raised several times in the pledge threads, and I've only seen one honest reply to it. The 'you don't have to say it' argument just avoids the real question, would you care if the teacher of your child lead theer classroom in a pledge that opposed your beliefs? Your kid might not have to say 'under Satan', but do you really want them exposed to that?

If atheists and agnostics are allowed to drop 'under God', or not participate, or include their own phrase, then why shouldn't the same apply to christians? We could take 'under God' out completely, and allow anyone to spout off about their own beliefs in whatever manner they choose in that part of the pledge.

Hopefully doing so would help everyone see that expressing personal religious convictions does not belong in the classroom, especially backed by official wording of oaths or pledges. You can say that a 5 year old can do whatever they want in kindergarten, but do you really believe they have the life experience and willpower to make these kinds of choices on their own? At 5 years old I probably would have sworn alleigance to my shoe if everyone else in the class was doing it. The pledge is just indoctrinating kids, it serves no other purpose.

Get rid of 'under God' in the pledge, by getting rid of the pledge altogether.

[Jac de Molay]

I'll probably make an as$ of myself, but.

The pledge is an affirmation of patriotism, not religion. Because of the pledge's wording it is implied that to be a patriot you also should believe in God.

I see no specific affirmation of a specific religion in the words "Under God", or acknowledgment that the US is a theocracy. This is a distinction our wise forefathers made.

They knew that the government should never advocate or establish a specific religion, but also knew the new nation's basis was a common moral framework exemplified by a belief higher than the human condition, whether it be "God", a common purpose, or even a gaseous cloud for that matter- it's a fine distinction, but important.

Also, I personally don't see anything in those two words that individuals must "believe in God" to be a "patriot". That's reading an awful lot into two words.

Imagine how you would feel if the official wording of the pledge was changed to something you didn't want your children exposed to

You mean like "liberty" and "justice" for all? There are a lot of civil right activists and native americans who might disagree with the two words "for all". Perhaps a more sanitized version of "for all" would be more sensitive to their concerns.

Hopefully doing so would help everyone see that expressing personal religious convictions does not belong in the classroom, especially backed by official wording of oaths or pledges

Again, the words "under God" are too generic to espouse any specific, or personal, religious position.

Sorry for the rehash. I missed the first pledge debate. Fire away.

[Jaakko]

Seems to me that the political Christianity (mainly religious right, or should that be wrong ) in the US simply wants to make the US a "Christian Nation". As far as the pledge and other liturgies are concerned, they've succeeded pretty well.
I could live under such things were it my country, but frankly I've little respect for those who want that kind of active recognition of their religion.
But I suppose that's the big problem of all proselytising religions, trying to spread the infection. look at some Islamic countries. For really extreme examples, It's a most distasteful trend, even if it's cloaked in the feel-good aspects of the religion in question.