Supreme Court Rules Vouchers to Be Constitutional!

[- Groucho -]

It takes money out by reducing the amount of money in the budget to spend on education. The money has to come from somewhere and I don't think state and federal regulators are going to raise new taxes to pay for it.

[KrazyHorse]

Jon, why would parents who have no intention of sending their children to public schools vote to increase their own taxes (or even maintain them) in order to help these same public schools?

A mass move into private educaton will kill any hopes for the public school system, and a voucher program that benefits mainly the rich will guarantee that it happens.

[Jon Miller]

so when we spend money on making new roads or on medicare it takes from education

well in a way yes, but just because it goes to support that student for private education does not mean it would support that student in public education

if there was not this voucher program what makes you think the money would be spent on the student in public school

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Jon, why would parents who have no intention of sending their children to public schools vote to increase their own taxes (or even maintain them) in order to help these same public schools?

A mass move into private educaton will kill any hopes for the public school system, and a voucher program that benefits mainly the rich will guarantee that it happens.

if the voucher program benefits mainly the rich how will there be a mass move to private education??

the rich are a minority in the US at least

and when the public schools get better (most) people will move back to them (because they are cheaper)

Jon Miller

[KrazyHorse]

Because if there are more children in public school then more parents care about what happens in those public schools.

[faded glory]

Anyone who pays taxes should have the right to use a credit to send there kid to a better school. The public school is a mess. Ya you can fix it, but I think people are to pre-occupied trying to fix the school as an institution. Im more worried about the kids getting the shaft.

Milwaukee has a voucher plan called act 39, it works great. It has a 70% graduation rate among the public dropouts that join.

[Jon Miller]

I am not sure what you are answering KrazyHorse

Jon Miller

[faded glory]

hey JM, I took off work today. Too damn tired...do you wanna play SP3?

[Gatekeeper]

Timexwatch, et al.:

Heh. That's the next upcoming "trend" among Americans — "Hey! I don't have any kids. Why should I have to pay for any sort of tax for education?" Or, "My kids graduated years ago. I shouldn't have to fork over any tax money now for education, since I'm not benefiting from it."

People wonder why some public schools fare poorly when it comes to educating their students. On the surface, it may look simple: They're not doing their job. Oftentimes, however, when you actually lift the hood to take a look at the "engine" beneath, you find *multiple* causes for crappy public school performance:

1. Some school personnel are, indeed, not qualified to teach.

2. The school is in a poor district, or a poor neighborhood.
—2A. This raises the question: Why is the neighborhood/district poor? What can be done to enhance the tax stream?
—2B. People living in or near poverty generally are struggling just to survive and, as such, don't pay much in taxes. They might also have severe cases of apathy due to their life circumstances. This in turn can lead to a loss of morality and allows familiar problems to crop up with their kids, which public schools are then forced to deal with.

3. Public schools have to teach *all* aspects of society, and, as a rule, cannot exclude certain types of people due to their income level, religion, ethnicity and whatnot. Private schools *do* have this luxury of being exclusionary to whatever degree they prefer, so I sure as hell would hope they'd do a better job of educating the "cream of the crop" students they choose to take in.

4. Taxes. Even in districts that are not really poor, you always have a fight over paying taxes in order to fund schools (among other government entities).

5. Equipment. The better financed a school is, the more likely it will be able to upgrade its equipment as necessary and/or make repairs to existing equipment.

There are, undoubtably, other reasons for poor (and good) school performances. But it all comes down to the fact that, what looks like a simple picture from afar, is actually a jigsaw puzzle of pieces forming said picture that are breaking up.

If we want a good public education — and we need one, if we want to maintain a free and democratic nation — we need to address these concerns. Throwing public money into private education isn't going to solve things. The last thing America needs is an education system that is driven by religious indoctrination and/or a profit motive. If that comes to pass, you can kiss America as you know it good-bye within a generation or two.

Gatekeeper

(P.S. If a person pays $4000 in taxes every year, and $1000 of that is a public school tax, and they insist on private schooling ... I'd give them a $1000 tax rebate and let 'em go. There would be no government subsidizing of private education; the individual would have to make up the difference in tuition.)

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Jon Miller


if the voucher program benefits mainly the rich how will there be a mass move to private education??

the rich are a minority in the US at least

and when the public schools get better (most) people will move back to them (because they are cheaper)

Jon Miller

It doesn't benefit only the rich; it benefits the rich(er). Say the top 40%. Now these parents move most or all of their children out, and they ave no wish to vote on better schools because they just don't care what happens to everybody else's kids. Public education cannot possibly be helped by pulling the kids of the higher-income families into the private school system. It's a vicious circle, and will end up with half the country being educated well in private school (which will bankrupt quite a few of the parents that send their kids there) and half the kids in squalid public schools, worse than anything you see nowadays.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
I am not sure what you are answering KrazyHorse

Jon Miller

if there was not this voucher program what makes you think the money would be spent on the student in public school

[Jon Miller]

hmm

maybe(I don't have a job this summer so I have just been lazy)

I haven't ate yet though and am getting hungery (3pm my time)

perhaps after?? (4:00pm eastern)

Jon Miller

[- Groucho -]

Originally posted by faded glory
Anyone who pays taxes should have the right to use a credit to send there kid to a better school.

You can't run a country like that. I pay taxes that fund farm and steel subsidies that I think are nuts. But I don't and shouldn't have the right to direct that my tax dollars not be spent that way. My tax dollars aren't allowed to be used to fund UN programs on birth control in third world nations. That is moronic and if I had the right to direct my taxes, that would change. But I don't have that right, and I shouldn't have that right. A country won't work that way.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Jon Miller
hmm

maybe(I don't have a job this summer so I have just been lazy)

I haven't ate yet though and am getting hungery (3pm my time)

perhaps after?? (4:00pm eastern)

Jon Miller

this was for faded

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Gatekeeper
Timexwatch, et al.:

Heh. That's the next upcoming "trend" among Americans — "Hey! I don't have any kids. Why should I have to pay for any sort of tax for education?" Or, "My kids graduated years ago. I shouldn't have to fork over any tax money now for education, since I'm not benefiting from it."

People wonder why some public schools fare poorly when it comes to educating their students. On the surface, it may look simple: They're not doing their job. Oftentimes, however, when you actually lift the hood to take a look at the "engine" beneath, you find *multiple* causes for crappy public school performance:

1. Some school personnel are, indeed, not qualified to teach.

2. The school is in a poor district, or a poor neighborhood.
—2A. This raises the question: Why is the neighborhood/district poor? What can be done to enhance the tax stream?
—2B. People living in or near poverty generally are struggling just to survive and, as such, don't pay much in taxes. They might also have severe cases of apathy due to their life circumstances. This in turn can lead to a loss of morality and allows familiar problems to crop up with their kids, which public schools are then forced to deal with.

3. Public schools have to teach *all* aspects of society, and, as a rule, cannot exclude certain types of people due to their income level, religion, ethnicity and whatnot. Private schools *do* have this luxury of being exclusionary to whatever degree they prefer, so I sure as hell would hope they'd do a better job of educating the "cream of the crop" students they choose to take in.

4. Taxes. Even in districts that are not really poor, you always have a fight over paying taxes in order to fund schools (among other government entities).

5. Equipment. The better financed a school is, the more likely it will be able to upgrade its equipment as necessary and/or make repairs to existing equipment.

There are, undoubtably, other reasons for poor (and good) school performances. But it all comes down to the fact that, what looks like a simple picture from afar, is actually a jigsaw puzzle of pieces forming said picture that are breaking up.

If we want a good public education — and we need one, if we want to maintain a free and democratic nation — we need to address these concerns. Throwing public money into private education isn't going to solve things. The last thing America needs is an education system that is driven by religious indoctrination and/or a profit motive. If that comes to pass, you can kiss America as you know it good-bye within a generation or two.

Gatekeeper

(P.S. If a person pays $4000 in taxes every year, and $1000 of that is a public school tax, and they insist on private schooling ... I'd give them a $1000 tax rebate and let 'em go. There would be no government subsidizing of private education; the individual would have to make up the difference in tuition.)

I think that the per pupil local tax is much higher than 2500

Jon Miller