Im loosing faith in Capitalism

[Az]

I asked. A friend of my father's was here . He said he was very sorry for the fact that the Union was broken.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


There is plenty of corruption in the US, precisely because there is very little accountability. The government only acts when forced, and the media is scared to say anything lest it be sued, or worse, impact the stock prices of their parent holding corporations.

Good observation. Note that Worldcom's auditor was none other than Authur Andersen.

We really need vigorous criminal enforcement against these CEOs, CFOs and their corrupt public auditors. The American people are outraged.

[Az]

time to join the dark side, Ned.

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

I bet those 17,000 Worldcom employees who are going to lose their jobs soon will have, at least, a short-term problem with capitalism run amok with controls that aren't enforced.

Gatekeeper

[moomin]

Dal: We who like the free markets are all for strict regulations in place to ensure maximal transparency and honest trade. It's in our interest. Ned would only be heading for the dark side (at least on this issue) if he were an anarchist.

I say more power to the SECs of the world.

[Ned]

Dalgetti, The debate on communism is endless. In the end it comes down to "equality" vs. "wealth." You cannot have both.

From my point of view, if a people democratically elect a communist government, it is not for us to tell them to change their system. However, most, if not all, Communist systems we saw in the world were not democratically elected, but ruled by force with the extermination of resistance. It is the latter part of the equation that concerned the West.

If you want examples of "democratic" communism, look how Monks live in monasteries, or the Israeli settlers lived in their Kibbutz's. I had a small taste of the former some time ago. I understand your point of view concerning the "benefits" of equality.

[Az]

Kibbutzim. ah, another great argument. FOR ME. . Monks? I don't know about them.

Israel , who also had a planned economy , prior to the 70s, had a GDP growth of around 10%, annually , for 20 years!.

[Az]

Oh , and the west intervened where it suited it's interests , period. Let's not claim moral superiority for the west here, after numerous cases in which the western governments went in after the government they didn't find was totally adequate for their needs , if you know what I mean. And the debate doesn't end up as "Wealth" vs. "Equality" . I make my claim not for complete equality, but for a planned economy , in which every member of society has an equal chance, and with no private ownership of means of production or services. I am not a pure communist.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
Kibbutzim. ah, another great argument. FOR ME. . Monks? I don't know about them.

Israel , who also had a planned economy , prior to the 70s, had a GDP growth of around 10%, annually , for 20 years!.

Perhaps, then, Israel should really be studied by economists.

To some extent, Japan, Inc., got to where it is today by being "planned." However, they ran out of gas about 10 years ago.

After the change from planning to free-market, how has Israel done?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dalgetti
Oh , and the west intervened where it suited it's interests , period. Let's not claim moral superiority for the west here, after numerous cases in which the western governments went in after the government they didn't find was totally adequate for their needs , if you know what I mean. And the debate doesn't end up as "Wealth" vs. "Equality" . I make my claim not for complete equality, but for a planned economy , in which every member of society has an equal chance, and with no private ownership of means of production or services. I am not a pure communist.

This is what a monastery is all about. The Order owns all means of production. All monks are equal. They all share equally. Etc., etc., etc.

I don't know if there are any monasteries in Israel. But you might want to find out and go visit.

[TCO]

Israel gets huge influxes of subsidy from the US. Both the government and American Jewry. Also the population has grown quite a bit.

But do you really claim a CAGR of 10% over the last 20 plus years?

[Az]

It was rather well done. But now , we're going down , with the global ship. Unemployment rises , the currency has slipped quite a bit, and the taxes were slightly raised, as were the interest rates ,to halt the dolar's rise.

[Az]

Israel was NOT aided before 67' . World jewery did help, but it's contribution is rather pitiful. First we pushed agricultural production to europe , and texitiles . Then plastics , and chemical products , diamonds .

GP , that's the point . not in the last 20 capitalist years, but in the first 20 socialist democratic ( note , not social-democratic , i.e. democratic capitalist ) years.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I think that TRANSPARENCY is the word, and that is hard to implement, as there are always interests to hide the facts.

And free market encourages greed but there are also laws in place that try to keep things under control, laws are decent, but transparency is bad. Auditors basically hold a global oligopoly and that could be questionable too as there is noone to go after they have approved the books - and they might have good relationship with their customers and various other interests thet might prevent them bringing facts to surface, appart from possible incompetency and too little time spent checking the books.

It is very easy for millions to slip under the rug in multibillion dollar corporations.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Adalbertus
Chegitz, I think extreme corruption is one of the few things you can't accuse the Nazis of. On the other hand, you had no chance not being member of the party (what a difference to communist countries ), and for fuelling the war, the regime took money where they could (i. e. also from the savings of the population). But overall I think it wasn't worse than in today's western democracies.

Actually I can. The Nazi Party had an unofficial tax on the big capitalists, whih they happily paid as the Nazis lowered corporate taxes considerably. The Nazis then turned around and gave massive contracts to their contributors, much like in the US today.

You didn't have to be a member of the Nazi Party, but if you were a smaller capitalist it helped. Schindler's List is an excellent movie about the subservience of the Nazis to the capitalists. He was able to marh into Auschwitz and demand (and buy) his workers back. Don't tell me that the Nazis weren't corrupt.

And then there's all the looting of Jews and foreign treasures.