Is Brazil going the way of Argentina?

[Giancarlo]

No he isn't.

Are these letters of support I see:

http://www.cavallo.org.ar/Mensajes/mensajes.html

HOLY! 24 PAGES OF THEM! There must be literally thousands on there...

[Dr. Nick]

What about the other millions of people who want to see him in clink? Oooo... yes, support, lots of support.

I think even Menem can rustle up more support. And Cavallo too.

He is an accomplice to the blowing up of FM in Rio Tercero in Cordoba. He is an accomplice of Menem and Yoma. He deserves to be put away, as well as all his generation of politicians.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence
What about the other millions of people who want to see him in clink? Oooo... yes, support, lots of support.

You underestimate the man.

He is an accomplice to the blowing up of FM in Rio Tercero in Cordoba. He is an accomplice of Menem and Yoma. He deserves to be put away, as well as all his generation of politicians.

I trust him. Like I do with the evergrowing popular Reutemann who is just about to overcome Carrio in recent polls.

[moomin]

Originally posted by El Awrence
moom, do you think the average Argentina wants your dirty money? Ha-ha. We'd happily tell you to stuff it.

Yeah? Then how come you're complaining now that it seems the bounty is about to disappear?

And we could probably work out a wonderful communist deal with Cuba... food for medicine. Cuba would have solved its only problem for which people criticise Castro for "all those poor Cubans starving".

You do that. I'm looking forward to reading about the forthcoming successes of that co-op.

Moom, I also think your post is the most ignorant comment I've heard so far... I said I didn't advocate for lending money, I criticise the IMF for letting us out to dry after ten years of back-patting.

So your beef is with the IMF is that they don't treat you with all the respect that you feel entitled to, not that they won't pour more of western taxpayer's money into your coffers? I see. I'll confess that I couldn't even start to imagine such pettiness - must be all that ignorance.

I also love the way you think that for some reason the people are to blame for the bankruptcy of the state (well, we are in fact, we should have overthrown the ruling class ages ago before the toast got completely carbonised).

You're a democracy, aren't you? You were all happy to accept the handouts, and now you come complining when the bill collector knocks on the door. Amazing as it might seem, we expect you to take full responsibility for your actions as grown-up people.

And one of the hard lessons of life is that you get to pay your bills eventually. How? By working it off, if you squandered the capital. So that means, yes, I fully expect you to do the darn dishes untill you've worked of your debt. I and my fellow western citizens aren't your darn slaves, and you're not entitled to enjoy free education at our expense. If the best response you have to this realization is going down the road to totalitarism and throw your country away to commies then do so.

I just don't wanna hear the complaints afterward. People who give up democracy for dictature deserve exactly what they get.

[Dr. Nick]

You're a democracy, aren't you?

Technically, yes. As if voting would change anything.

You were all happy to accept the handouts

Handouts? What handouts? The only thing we've been trying to do for the past 10 years is put our crooked politicians out of office and in clink.

and you're not entitled to enjoy free education at our expense

It's good that you say that, because the IMF hasn't paid a cent of it. Neither has the government, as most of the teachers there work ad honorem as it is and the reason the non-teaching staff is always on strike is because it doesn't get paid.

Your preception disgusts me that its the fault of the people for some reason... that's what disgusts me. Do you think we went on a sort of Thomas More Utopia bullpizzle? Hah... ignorant fool. For the past ten years the only thing the Argentine population has done is tighten its belt. We aren't responsible for the governments' disasters, we are a social mess because of other external factors and we are a society afraid of doing anything about anything because of our history (most of it not even self-inflicted anyway).

It's your ignorant perception that the people are responsible that insults and offends me. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay up, I'm saying that the IMF should lay off and the West should stop imperialising and *****infying and colonising. Because it's easy for you, born into an American crib to say all that rubbish.

We're an impotent society, afraid to act. Paranoid of everything. We don't trust anyone. You need to fix that before you come preaching to us telling us to pay our debts and demanding more of the people (who have nothing to do with the bloody government).

[JCG]

I'd say that Brazil is a completely different situation, there might be some parallels, but not enough to draw serious conclusions, much less to dictate policy based on them....

Btw, the IMF basically is just a masked way to increase foreign debt in other countries, so a hearty bleh goes to it from me.

[TCO]

E. L.

Argentina should just default on the loans.

(don't ever expect any more...but that is fine. probably worth it.)

[TCO]

Originally posted by JCG
I'd say that Brazil is a completely different situation, there might be some parallels, but not enough to draw serious conclusions, much less to dictate policy based on them....

Btw, the IMF basically is just a masked way to increase foreign debt in other countries, so a hearty bleh goes to it from me.

Good. We are sick of paying for this little slush fund anyway. Will be good not to do so any longer.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by GP
E. L.

Argentina should just default on the loans.

(don't ever expect any more...but that is fine. probably worth it.)

Didn't they already default?

[KrazyHorse]

I thought that was the first thing the prez did when he came back in after his 24 hour visit to Mingapulco...

[TCO]

Maybe so, I haven't kept track of all the ins and outs.

[KrazyHorse]

I know that some private banks up here took it up the ass on loans made down there...

Not as bad as the defaults caused by Enron thing, but still...

On that note, I thought I'd link to this cute little half-billion dollar game of "who's got the tab"

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/06/24/royal020624

[moomin]

Originally posted by El Awrence
Technically, yes. As if voting would change anything.

In democracies, if people feel the government's doing a bad job, they just kick them out and install a new one. If you feel this didn't work in Argentina, why didn't you do something about it? This whining about how the politicos stole all and left you dry is sickening - why didn't you stop that? And not by some teenage power fantasy of revolution but the way adult, mature people do: start a new party, gather support and effect change. Guess you were all waiting for someone else to pick up the slack and do something - well, there's a price for indolence too. You're paying it now.

Handouts? What handouts? The only thing we've been trying to do for the past 10 years is put our crooked politicians out of office and in clink.

You failed to kick out a set of people generally percieived as corrupt during a decade while the IMF kept pouring western money into your country? And now that the flow stopped it's somehow unfair, because you didn't come around to doing the basic work expected by any rational people all by yourselves in all that time?

It's good that you say that, because the IMF hasn't paid a cent of it. Neither has the government, as most of the teachers there work ad honorem as it is and the reason the non-teaching staff is always on strike is because it doesn't get paid.

I guess they're slow, then. Hint: if you don't get paid, don't do the job. That's how it works for the rest of us - I'd like to be a poet, for instance, but since nobody seems to be interested in paying for my priceless poems I have to work as a manager for a living. Tough, isn't it?

Your preception disgusts me that its the fault of the people for some reason... that's what disgusts me. Do you think we went on a sort of Thomas More Utopia bullpizzle? Hah... ignorant fool. For the past ten years the only thing the Argentine population has done is tighten its belt. We aren't responsible for the governments' disasters, we are a social mess because of other external factors and we are a society afraid of doing anything about anything because of our history (most of it not even self-inflicted anyway).

It is entirely your fault, as a nation and as a people, no one else's. Colonialism is over, we don't appoint your government any more, you know. If they did a lousy job it was your darn duty to kick them out and replace them with better people. Since you failed to deliver on even this basic civic duty your all guilty for the mess you're in.

It's your ignorant perception that the people are responsible that insults and offends me. I'm not saying we shouldn't pay up, I'm saying that the IMF should lay off and the West should stop imperialising and *****infying and colonising. Because it's easy for you, born into an American crib to say all that rubbish.

Guess what? You are responsible for the actions of your government. It's that simple. I don't give a friggin' fick about whether this "insults and offends" you. It's still true, and if you don't feel that your mature enough to have a governmaent perhaps you should ask your neighbours the Chileans to accept you as a colony - they seem to have less trouble managing their essential duties these days.

As for the West "imperialisng and colonising", give me a break, will you? The one connection you've had with the West is that Western taxpayers have been financing your coffers - and if the class of people you elected stole that money then that's still your responsibility.

And finally, if you feel the need to hurl stuff about your opponents ignorance about, perhaps you could do better not to needlessly revealing your own. I've never had any connection with any "American crib".

We're an impotent society, afraid to act. Paranoid of everything. We don't trust anyone. You need to fix that before you come preaching to us telling us to pay our debts and demanding more of the people (who have nothing to do with the bloody government).

You still don't get it, do you? We don't need to do squat - it's your problem. Now you want us to fix the problem of your being an "impotent, paranoid" society too? Christ, fix that yourselves. You're an independet country - do your own cleaning. And you'll be shocked to find that out in the real world, not the on run by the government planners of the IMF, lenders don't give a damn about your sob stories - they want their money back, and how you fix that is your problem.

[Bereta_Eder]

Re: Is Brazil going the way of Argentina?

No.

Stooopid games by moody's because they dont want a socialist leader in the october elections.

[TCO]

If Latin American socialists share El Awrences outlook, Moodys is quite reasonable in judging that the default risk has risen. Also the lack of a bailout for Argentina argues that moral hazard has deminished. (bond holders face more real risk since the IMF won't prop up the countries they lend to...)