italy 1 - korea & referee 2

[Fidel]

Originally posted by frankychan
Its a shame that Italy is outties...but I'm focusing on the
"Yanks" vs. "Ze Germans" game.

Go US!!!!

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze
Brüderlich zusammenhält,
Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
Von der Etsch bis an den Belt -
Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt.

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
Sollen in der Welt behalten
Ihren alten schönen Klang,
Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
Unser ganzes Leben lang.
Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang

[ZoboZeWarrior]

The reaction of some italian supporter is unacceptable. Asian people were attacked in Italia after the defeat.

They losed because they had a bad defense and the foe was better. Not because of some "anti-italian" referee.

[Sloth]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
The reaction of some italian supporter is unacceptable. Asian people were attacked in Italia after the defeat.

Where? When?

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Sloth

Where? When?

No precision on location. Just said that Italian threw empty bottle (of beer ?) to Asian tourist.

In Australia too, some Italians (immigrant, tourist ??) attacked some restaurant, starting some riots ...

[ edit ] location : Piazza del Popolo (Roma)

[Angelo Scotto]

Sorry if it's a bit long but there's so much to say

Originally posted by Victor
And the second Italian "goal" was clearly illegal. (Unlike the 2 against Croatia.)

Victor, i don't know if you simply ignore soccer rules or if you have serious problems with your eyes and see the world around you like a Picasso's painting, anyway official rules says:

A player is not in an offside position if:
he is in his own half of the field of play or
he is level with the second last opponent or
he is level with the last two opponents

Now, with this in mind find a way to view the action another time (with some one else near you to solve any problem with your Picasso Vision ), and watch carefully Tommasi position when italy played the ball.

If you still see an offside position, don't lose more time, jump on a plane for Korea, they're searching someone like you to referee the final!

Originally posted by Hueij
hehehe... I love this WC... Korea and Senegal in the quarters Now only to get rid of Germany and England...

Yeah, a bit strange don't you think...

Originally posted by SnapCase
Don't make me laugh. The italians brough this entirely on themselves...
The referee didn't make one truly bad decision,
with only the Totti sending off being mildly contentious.

"mildly contentious"? Yes, and yours assertions are mildly inexact...
Listen, i suggest you to have a look at the action another time (but probably you need two or three times).
You'll notice that the referee was near the midfield line when the fact happened (and this, if you need it, is another proof of the extreme unability of mr. moreno), and his view was covered by FOUR (4!!!) players, now how can he decide that Totti made a dive i really can't understand, he has super-view just like superman? i could understand if he simply decided to not give the penalty (because that wasn't a penalty) but look at that damned action and tell me, what does Totti have to do? a Korean player clearly hits him, what does Totti have to do? does HE HAVE TO EVAPORATE just to avoid falling down? (diving ... please don't make US laugh)

No, It was Italy's boring ****ing play that lost them the game. No lame excuses, please.

This is not a question of excuses, this is a question of facts, and not just italy-korea facts, the whole WC is, as Hueij noticed above, really "unconventional", let's hope Blatter goes to jail soon or we'll have to start following basketball ( )

*yawn*
Bad Losers making bad excuses.

*yawn*
Bad Brains making bad reasonings.

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Italy has not had a good tournament so far- they barely qualified for the tournament only because Ecuador didn't lose to Croatia in the last game.
They lost to Croatia- heck the only team they beat during the whole WC was Ecuador. Korea on the other had has played marvelous so far and it didn't suprise me at all that they won.
Plus I am happy to see Korea win because it was them beating Portugal that let the US advance!

Shi, you missed the point completely, i hear a lot of people telling "the Referee was scandalous BUT Italy has not had a good play", this is the wrong way to see the problem:
it should be: "Italy has not had a good play BUT the Referee was scandalous", In soccer not always the best team goes ahead and this is part of the game, THE SCANDAL is that the referee arbitrated like a Korean supporter!

Think about it, it's not difficult:
It's more scandalous a team which had bad play but goes ahead or a referee which systematically and scientifically advantages home team?

Originally posted by Tolls
What a silly little man Gaucci is...

The problem with Gaucci (who BTW is "not a genius", just to be kind) is that Ahn is not a good player (5 goals in 29 matches...and it's not a defender, it's a forwarder...),
Gaucci probably noticed that is more convenient to sell Ahn and to buy Moreno, the real star of Korean soccer team...

Originally posted by SpencerH
I thought of that too. There was one funny scene in the game with an Italian holding his face when he hadnt even been touched at all

No, it was a brazilian player...or when Rivaldo does it, it's ok?

Originally posted by Flubber
All this complaining. I watched the match and after reading all this stuff yesterday, I watched it again and still think Italy does not have
much of a complaint

Hmm, probably you need to watch it again a couple of times...
Seriously, look it again and take a look at the referee: it was always in bad position and too much covered to take good decisions, the italian play was "not great", to say at least, i agree, but this is secondary: YOU CAN'T PLACE A COMPLETE IDIOT TO ARBITRATE A WC MATCH! (and they said Collina is the best referee of the world, i was skeptic, then i saw rest of the world referees and started to understand...)

1. The early penalty on which Korea did not score was CLEARLY deserved

Yes, and Buffon caught it, so what's the point here?
(But, since you re-watched the match closely... haven't you noticed that the referee was looking at the defender holding back the forwarder long before the corner kick but he made the game go ahead, just to whistle the penalty as soon as the ball entered penalty area? usually, a good referee, stops the game BEFORE the corner kick, goes to the defender and say him something like "don't held him that way again or i'll give him a penalty", and this is expecially true if the match started 5 minutes before (you're not the only one who had practised sport in his life))

2. The offside was too close for me to call despite several looks.

But if the forwarder was not even on level with the defender!!! the offside was not even close, maybe in some strange non-euclidean geometries is difficult to see Tommasi's legal position but not in this one! but what match did you re-view? an anime version?
Anyway, even if the onside position of Tommasi was not as clear as it was, i remember you that FIFA added in 1996 the following to soccer official rules:
"Assistant referees should be instructed to indicate a punishable offside only if they are sure that the player is offside.
Therefore, in case of doubt, they should refrain from intervening."
So, even if Tommasi position was doubtful (and it wasn't), THE LINESMAN HAD TO KEEP HIS DAMNDED FLAG DOWN!!!
Obviously you, and other people on this thread, may start writing "Italy played bad", "you deserved to lose", etc, etc but the point is another one:
Let's me freely paraphrase "The Big Lebowsky": "This is not 'Nam, this is soccer, there are rules..."

Now after looking again at the match I wondered why an Italian player had not been sent off earlier for either arguing calls of one of
the several times that an Italian player got right in the refs face and jostled him a bit.

When you are playing a World Cup and you see that they placed a strange kind of pokemon who probably discovered only two months ago that soccer was not an european disease, well... i think that italian players showed a great self-control instead

The Totti send-off was questionable but other than that I thought the Italians had no major reason for complaint.

What about, just an example, that action in Korean penalty area when a Korean defender suddenly starts thinking it is playing volleyball and stops the ball with the hand? mmh, i think you have to rewatch it another time...

The Italians also seemed to outdo Korea in jersey-holding and referee complaining.

Why, Koreans have to do some referee complaining? listen, what about sending me too your anime version of the match? i'm really curious...

I've played sports all my life and have felt hard done by from referees but the reality is that sometimes the close ones don't go your
way. Deal with it na d stop complaining.

From what you wrote above soccer was definitely not one of those sports...

Thats true-- I mentioned their complaining but it also seened clear that the Italians did a lot more diving as well. The replays
capture some of the dives quite nicely

Yes... i suggest you to sue your TV company, they showed you a "Captain Tsubasa" episode and told you it was a WC match!

Originally posted by Giovanni
Fai il 2 o il 3 a 0, poi ti chiudi a tartaruga in difesa.... Sostituire Del Piero con Gattuso e` stata una vera e propria cazzata.

Concordo pienamente, ed aggiungici pure la mancata sostituzione di Vieri con Montella, altro che nel secondo tempo supplementare, Vieri era spompato gia' alla fine del secondo tempo regolamentare e probabilmente Montella sarebbe stato abbastanza fresco da non sbagliare sotto porta in quell'ultima azione, ma questo secondo me passa in secondo piano (e di molto) rispetto allo scandalo arbitri.

Originally posted by JB
Get over it Giovanni, what is done is done.

(I'm not Giovanni but i think it will apply to me too)
Ok, ok, you're right and probably after this vent i'll drop the discussion but when someone is robbed, at least he goes and reports the fact, maybe FIFA will design a professional referee instead of a clown for the next Korean match, because italy raised the problem, in one sense JB maybe you'll have to thank us...

Originally posted by JohnIII
France hit the woodwork five times. Would you like us to move the goalposts for them?

??? ???
I really don't see your point.

Originally posted by Giovanni
But I truly thinks that a team like Italy should have played more offensivly... especially with all those players.

Yes, you're right, a coach may decide to play a WC with a defensive approach but then HE HAD TO BRING several defenders and few forwarders, it is a nonsense to bring 6 forwarder if you plan to play with 2 of them for match (cause that way you also leave home several good defenders necessary for the approach you planned, did you notice that with Cannavaro and Nesta out we nearly had to put Toldo in defence )

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
The reaction of some italian supporter is unacceptable. Asian people were attacked in Italia after the defeat.

I totally agree

They losed because they had a bad defense and the foe was better. Not because of some "anti-italian" referee

I totally disagree

Greetings,
Angelo

---

Korea Republic-Italy
18 June, 20:30
Daejeon, Korea
Man of the Match: MORENO Byron

"Siamo al mondiale: i guardalinee bisogna prenderli dalla serie A, non dall'interregionale... "
--- Bobo Vieri

[Victor Galis]

"If you still see an offside position, don't lose more time, jump on a plane for Korea, they're searching someone like you to referee the final!"

-I saw the offside position clearly the first time. (Ok, the first replay. Mind you, I'm a big Korea fan, so there is bias involved).

But I did watch the Croatia game... at least parts of it, and I shared the Italian's outrage at the calls made there (Mind you, I was in Firenze and praying for an Italian victory at the time. Bastard Croatians, always win through bad refereeing).

Re: the Totti thing... I might agree that it was unfair if I hadn't been praying that Totti would get a red card ever since he got the first yellow one (yes, I mumbled "Come on Totti, you can get the second card." several times).

[JohnIII]

Angelo, this post made my blood boil with righteous indignation. I'll tone it down a bit, though.

If an assistant referee can see a part of the attacker ahead of the defender, he is supposed to give the attacker as offside. Tomassi's foot was ahead of the Korean defender.

that wasn't a penalty...but look at that damned action and tell me, what does Totti have to do? a Korean player clearly hits him, what does Totti have to do? does HE HAVE TO EVAPORATE just to avoid falling down? (diving ... please don't make US laugh)

Totti handled the ball as if he was expecting a penalty, as he fell. Watch it again, and not with patriotism obscuring your view. If he wasn't expecting a a penalty from a non-foul, then what was he doing? Deliberate handball? Trying to stop the ball from going for a goal kick? PLAYING RUGBY?!

The problem with Gaucci (who BTW is "not a genius", just to be kind) is that Ahn is not a good player (5 goals in 29 matches...and it's not a defender, it's a forwarder...),

No, he's more of a midfielder. Besides, why release him now?

Gaucci probably noticed that is more convenient to sell Ahn and to buy Moreno, the real star of Korean soccer team...

Will Moreno want to go to a club where the chairman will obviously hate him for helping knock Italy out? Yeah right.

No, it was a brazilian player...or when Rivaldo does it, it's ok?

Good try, but what Rivaldo did has been criticised already over here. I noticed a few incidences of Italian diving on the highlights.

they said Collina is the best referee of the world, i was skeptic, then i saw rest of the world referees and started to understand...

So, before this World Cup, who would you have put above Collina? In addition, the standard of refereeing has been pretty good. Italy have just had bad luck and, and this is the important thing, NOT PLAYED WELL ENOUGH.

haven't you noticed that the referee was looking at the defender holding back the forwarder long before the corner kick but he made the game go ahead, just to whistle the penalty as soon as the ball entered penalty area? usually, a good referee, stops the game BEFORE the corner kick, goes to the defender and say him something like "don't held him that way again or i'll give him a penalty", and this is expecially true if the match started 5 minutes before (you're not the only one who had practised sport in his life))

If he had been JUST holding the player back, the referee would have let it go. But the defender pulled the Korean over.

When you are playing a World Cup and you see that they placed a strange kind of pokemon who probably discovered only two months ago that soccer was not an european disease, well... i think that italian players showed a great self-control instead

Less of the obnoxious racism, please. Yes, the players showed great self-control in only yelling in the referee's face. I would have FULLY SUPPORTED THEM had they PUNCHED HIM IN THE ****ING STOMACH!

??? ???
I really don't see your point.

The point was, you can;t change what has happened, and the bad refereeing is not endemic, so stop whining about it.

did you notice that with Cannavaro and Nesta out we nearly had to put Toldo in defence )

So Materazzi, Iuliano, Panucci, and Maldini don't exist? If you have two players out in any position from a 23-man squad, you are in a bit of trouble. Look at England's midfield.

[Sten Sture]

PLAYING RUGBY? Even an american found that pretty funny! lol

In the states we would yell "FUMBLE"


On Totti: he certainly embellished the contact; as he has been known to do 'on occasion'

On offside calls: from watching more soccer/calcio/football over the past four years than all other americans combined, I would offer the opinion that the 'even with the last defender' is almost never called onside, even in the Serie A. Linesmen should be more liberal with the calls.

But the point of my post was to provide a link to clear up the Ahn vs Perugia saga...

http://www.soccerage.com/en/13/f1957.html

[SpencerH]

Some comments by the FIFA president (from the BBC)

"The refereeing has been the only negative aspect of this World Cup," said Blatter.

"The (referees) have been quite good, but the (linesmen) have been a disaster, especially when it comes to offside.

"They haven't even realised that it is better to award an offside goal than to disallow a good goal."

Blatter has denied claims by Italian officials that the team was the victim of a Fifa plot, but admitted they had been unfortunate as earlier matches had also seen dubious decisions.

"Sadly, and I have suffered greatly because of it, there have been exceptional circumstances and coincidences that saw many errors consecutively made against the same team, Italy," he said.

"Totti's sending off against Korea was neither a penalty nor a dive. A referee with a feeling (for the game) would not have shown him the card, bearing in mind the same player had already been booked."

Moreno insists that he made the correct decision in sending off Totti for diving during extra-time.

"I would do it again," he told Il Messaggero newspaper. "I don't even have to watch the replays. Totti dived."

Blatter refused to lay all the blame for Italy's exit with Moreno and criticised the reaction to the defeat.

"Italy's elimination is not only down to referees and linesmen who made human not premeditated errors," Blatter told La Gazzetta.

[Prometeus]

Sarà...

Intanto, la Rai citerà la FIFA per danni economici...

Cazzi amari, Blatter caro... qui in Italia per 'ste cose c'è anche la galera!!!

[kittenOFchaos]

Totti should have been sent off on the basis of his name alone...

(calls the fire brigade)

[Imran Siddiqui]

JohnIII... WOW... that was very calm. If I was in your shoes, I'd have ripped his head off. Good form!

[Giancarlo]

Italy was cheated five or six goals... I am suspecting rampant corruption in this World Cup.... the only game I am going to watch is the one in Spain in it. Korea will lose. GO SPAIN

[Promethus]

Soccer Referees on Run, and They Can't Hide

June 21, 2002
By GEORGE VECSEY




The loneliest sports officials on the planet, soccer
referees are a subject of criticism by fans, players and
the president of FIFA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/21/sports/soccer/21VECS.html?ex=1025632147&ei=1&en=ff0fb00bb9d9ebea

[Prometeus]

Originally posted by Promethus
Soccer Referees on Run, and They Can't Hide

June 21, 2002
By GEORGE VECSEY




The loneliest sports officials on the planet, soccer
referees are a subject of criticism by fans, players and
the president of FIFA.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/06/21/sp...0fb00bb9d9ebea

... not to forgot about corruption by other teams...

Someone here remember Nardelli? The boxeur? Seul 1988?