The Israeli army's daily humiliation of Palestinians

[KrazyHorse]

Native Americans (at least up here) are as well-armed as the average light infantryman, something that was quite clearly demonstrated during the Oka crisis 10 years ago. They're exempt on their own land (reservations) from many of the laws that non-Natives are bound by.

[Natan]

Since you seem to be united in the view that these soliders are not representative of Israel or IDF, what are your views of Arafats culpability in terrorist attacks?

Of course, Sharons history shows that he will never take responsibility of the actions of men under his command, but he is always eager to blame Arafat for actions carried out by Arafats political rivals...

You're comparing the isolated acts of individuals to those of organizations. It's like saying that the US should take responsibility for harboring the terrorists who killed Muslims (or people who looked like Muslims) after 9/11 or not complain about the Taliban and others who harbor terrorists.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Solver
I didn't know they have arms. Are the arms of native americans are comparison to the modern arms, or are those some old ww1 rifles?

They're US citizens. They can buy anything we can buy. When I was swimming at a beach on an Indian rez, a couple folks came by and started shooting their machine guns. We left.

[CyberGnu]

Natan, you are not answering the question. If you think that we can't blame the state of Israel for the actions of some of its soldiers, how can you blame Arafat for the actions of some of his political rivals?

[CyberGnu]

Bumpelibump.

Uncomfortable answering, Natan?

[Alexander's Horse]

The full transcript of the program is here

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/s584047.htm

[Natan]

I already answered - they're in no way analogous situations. Now if there was an organization of IDF soldiers severely abusing Palestinians as a policy, and Sharon had repeatedly endorsed their murders and robberies and made an official policy of not prosecuting them, you'd have a point. As it is, you might as well say that the UN is responsible for the abuses committed by its peacekeepers.

[CyberGnu]

But you haven't answered, Natan.

Arafat has condemned the terrorist bombings. He has prosecuted some.

But because he doesn't have the political muscle to enfore the law in the entire PA, he is somehow more culpable than the IDF is regarding the actions of its soldiers?

Rank hypocrisy.

[Sirotnikov]

Hamas has just said that Palestine cannot be liberated by suicide bombing. They did say, however, that Gaza and the West Bank could be

They changed their speak only in the last few months, since the USA blocked their funds.

Are you suggesting that my provincial government has plans to violently annex Labrador if and when they achieve sovereignty?

If your map includes all labrador, it means you have cravings for it.

I haven't heard news about terrorists killed while atepting to polute water supply.

That's because we managed to prevent those incidents.

as I published here a month and a half ago, Israel found neat big bottles of bromine (and cyanide iirc) in Arafat's offices.

[Alexander's Horse]

This is part of the transcript I was referring to

This is the checkpoint outside the Palestinian town of Ramallah.

Jerusalem's only about 15 minute's drive away, but Palestinians usually wait here between one and three hours while Israeli soldiers search their cars and check their ID cards.

WOMAN 4 (TRANSLATION): We were standing on the other side from the checkpoint and I told him that my husband just get out of the hospital and he is doing this dialysis.

And he says, "Go back."

And I asked him again, that we need to get in.

And then, with the back of the gun, he took him and he beat him on his back.

And then he was thrown on the ground.

COLONEL MIRI EISEN: Have you ever seen a suicide belt?

When you put them on, all it looks is like it's an overweight person.

Sadly, there's no other way to check.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: The number of checkpoints varies.

Recently, there've been between 100 and 200 across the West Bank and Gaza.

Each one can become its own front line between Palestinians and soldiers.

This man is a serving commander in the Israeli army.

He's breaking the law by speaking to us.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): Everybody in the country serves in the Israeli army.

So you know what to expect and nothing is really new.

But when you are actually faced with it, it is shocking.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: According to the commander, some army units are known for excelling at harassment of Palestinians.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): First, there is one thing they do, which is to put the Palestinians in a group of three.

This is something that new soldiers that have joined the army like to do to the Palestinians.

They put them in a group of three and then give them tasks.

It's like playing games with them.

For example, they'd tell them to march as if it was an army march or tell them to shout.

They'd make them shout the name of their own army unit and make them sing songs in the same way they'd sing the songs of their unit.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Another trick -- taking keys or ID cards.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): Take it for ten or twelve hours, then let them wait and 'dry out' there.

Then sometimes they'll give back the documents and keys -- and sometimes they don't give them back.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Some Palestinians cry, some shout, some try to talk.

But in the end, most do what they're told.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): They're worried that if they don't carry out the army's orders, they'll get beaten up or the army will damage their cars or fire shots into the air.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Kaifa Al Ajrami lives in Jabaliya refugee camp in Gaza.

Her son Taiseer used to work in a factory in Israel.

Every day, to get to work, he had to go through the army checkpoint out of Gaza.

KAIFA AL AJRAMI (TRANSLATION): They order them to take off their clothes, spit at your friend behind you and spit at your friend in front of you.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Last year, Taiseer strapped on a bomb belt and blew himself up at the checkpoint.

He injured two soldiers.

KAIFA AL AJRAMI (TRANSLATION): And that was the worst thing -- continuous humiliation.

As a result of that humiliation, my son has gone.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: But attacks like Taiseer's only bring reprisals.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): There is a feeling of revenge and you see everything in black and white.

Every Palestinian becomes the enemy.

Every Palestinian you see becomes the enemy.

Palestinians hurt Israelis and therefore you can hurt Palestinians.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: Many soldiers feel vulnerable and frightened knowing they're targets for bombings and shootings.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): They are very worried.

They are afraid.

They are very tense.

And sometimes someone panics and breaks a road block or something like that -- and out of suspicion that it is a terrorist attack, they will shoot towards the car, even if it is an innocent person.

DEBBIE WHITMONT: The mistakes can be fatal.

Last month, the Israeli army admitted killing several innocent Palestinians, including women and children.

COMMANDER (TRANSLATION): Our society is seeing the best of its sons during army service humiliating Palestinians.

These people will later on become, become our doctors, engineers and lawyers.

It is very clear that nothing good can come of it.

[CyberGnu]

Siro, you can't poison the water supply with Bromine and Cyanide. The bromine would reduce to Br- pretty fast, and would be too dilute to cause harm.

The cyanide would complex to iron ions in the water and fall out as a heavy salt.

[Natan]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
But you haven't answered, Natan.

Arafat has condemned the terrorist bombings. He has prosecuted some.

Not quite. He has condemned them as damaging to the Palestinian cause at the present time (at other times he praises their executors) and he has put some of the terrorists into protective custody, which does nothing to limit their activities since they come and go freely.

But because he doesn't have the political muscle to enfore the law in the entire PA, he is somehow more culpable than the IDF is regarding the actions of its soldiers?

Rank hypocrisy.

Because he allows organizations which openly state that they perepetrate terrorist attacks to operate freely.


That the chemicals in question would be ineffective as poisons does not mean that no one would attempt to use them as such; Hamas has already made failed attempts to poison the shrapnel used in their bombs.

[Sirotnikov]

Cute picture, Eli, but you seem to be ignoring that all of Palestine is their historical homeland.

I think that if the Israeli emblems included all of Historical Judea & Israel (including lebanon, syria and joran), you'd be right to say that our true ambitions are expansionist.

Arafat has condemned the terrorist bombings. He has prosecuted some.

Well first of all, he has prosecuted none, except the zeevi murderors.

The terrorists were sitting in jail in administrative arrests.

And they were sitting in jails for very short periods. Infact, Arafat publically released all Hamas and Jihad terrorists he could in November 2000.

But because he doesn't have the political muscle to enfore the law in the entire PA, he is somehow more culpable than the IDF is regarding the actions of its soldiers?

What are your sources that he does not have the political muscle?
Your sources are international news agencies which simply quote statements by Palestinian officials. International wire agencies don't do investigative journalism.

Israeli intelligence sources (whose legitimacy you fail to acknowledge, even though the rest of the world knows better [we saved king hussein's ass twice, we saved sadat's head once, we warned america about a major terract prior to 9/11]) tell a different story about the works of Arafat and his cabinet.

We just 'happen to have' the ability to pick up any phone conversation in the ME . And I know we had it even in the early 60s.

We just 'happen to have' agents in the PA and Hamas and Jihad.

Furthermore we've found evidence in the form of actual letters signed by Arafat approving money transfers to known terrorists (read: organizers of suicide bomber, and suicide bombers).

We have evidence given to us by barghoutti about the nature of Arafat's actions.

You on the other hand, have an active imagination for conspiracies.

[CyberGnu]

Ah, siro, it's good to know that we can count on you pulling out the magical 'israeli intelligence sources' at every conrer.

Of course, the ultra-secret swedish intelligence services has told me in a private communicee that Israelis are all clones of Eva Braun, sent back in time to populate the earth, and that palestinians are jsut holograms created by the Eva clones to keep people away from the ME.

If we are going to have the debate at this level nothing will ever be said. Please stick to real sources.

[CyberGnu]

Natan, you are lying now.

Read the news. He condemened the bombings without qualifier (in arabic) only a few weeks ago.

BTW, I have yet to see Sharon condemning the actions of his hired thugs, err, I mean valiant soldiers.


Likewise with the prosecution. Five men were sentenced to several years in jail for various crimes connected to terrorism. It might be that you are latching on to the one guy who were aquitted of the murder of the tourism minister, but put in protective custody to save him from Israeli murderers.

I know it is a strange concept with 'fair play' and 'justice', but in the rest of the world we have a court system where we examine these strange things called 'evidence'. If there is no 'evidence' that a person commited a crime, that person is innocent.

Was the trial perfectly fair? I don't know. But the fact theat five out of six WERE found guilty argues that it was.