Should Canada adopt a US-style senate

[Asher]

Wrapping it up

Asher, I thought you were in favour of market capitalism?

Market capitalism already went to hell when the US and EU added subsidies. You have to stay competitive for the sake of those provinces who rely on agriculture. It sucks, but it's necessary for now.

----

Anyway, I've had my fill of Canadian politics for a while.

Tingkai brought up some good points and I learned quite a bit from this thread, but I still firmly believe that the majority government has too much power in Canada right now.

Perhaps a US-style senate isn't the best way to go, and perhaps a Senate based upon population via proportional representation would be best.

Either way, it's not going to happen. Most of Canada is content, and that's all that matters in Canada. No point in staying and trying to change a system most people are happy with. Those of us unhappy with it can just move a couple hundred kilometers south and quit our whining. And that's what I'll do.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Okay, so let's see here. 11% of Canadian farm revenues are from subsidies. 46% of American farm revenues are from subsidies. The two countries are right next to eachother and direct competitors. Which one is being better looked after by their government? 58% of Europe's farm revenues are from subsidies.

Asher: you’re a typical Conservative. You’ll ***** and moan about welfare payments and then you turn around and post something this stupid. Do you really think that Canadian farmers and farm corporations deserve more welfare payments just because the Americans and Europeans hand out more money? This is insane. These welfare payments simply encourage farmers to stay in an unprofitable industry.

Originally posted by Asher
Canada actively negotiated with the US and US companies and took action to get the trade pact. What are they doing about the farm situation right now, Tingkai? Do you see them going to the same lengths now?

Nice try, but again you are wrong. The Auto Pact was successfully negotiated because everybody benefited from the deal and both sides wanted it. The situation is completely different with farm welfare. Canada has been fighting for years for end to farm subsidies. So have the Americans. The problem is no one is willing to stop. Every time one country boosts the welfare payments, the farmers in other countries start whining and their governments end up following suit.

Originally posted by Asher
How do you figure? I've actually heard otherwise. My uncle is a manager at the Ford Plant in St. Thomas, Ontario, and he certainly doesn't think highly of Canadian car plants...

Labour agreements with the CAW are far more flexible than the American labour agreements. That has allowed Canadian auto plants to become more productive.

Originally posted by Asher
You're right, it's all myths.

Once again, you distort reality. The issue is the right-wing paranoia that uses lies to claim Ottawa is screwing the west.

Look at what you have posted. You have repeatedly posted incorrect statements. Your claim that Ottawa screws Alberta doesn’t hold water. The best you can do is a short-lived energy policy created more than 20 years ago. All the other examples of so-called persecution have been proven false.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Asher: you’re a typical Conservative. You’ll ***** and moan about welfare payments and then you turn around and post something this stupid. Do you really think that Canadian farmers and farm corporations deserve more welfare payments just because the Americans and Europeans hand out more money? This is insane. These welfare payments simply encourage farmers to stay in an unprofitable industry.

What do you propose Saskatchewan and Manitoba do in the meantime, Tingkai? I like to think about these things realistically.

You can't just tell Canadian farmers to pull out of the industry immediately because it's not very profitable due to foreign subsidies. You need to forcibly diversify those economies or relocate the citizens of those provinces.

You can't just STOP subsidizing the farms. That would kill those provinces, they can't compete. It'd be Newfoundland but an artificially created situation.

I think in the meantime we should continue subsidizing the farmers while at the same time actively stimulate manufacturing, technology, or other areas of those economies so we can "ween" them off of agriculture, as it were.

If that's typical conservative thought, then so be it.

Nice try, but again you are wrong. The Auto Pact was successfully negotiated because everybody benefited from the deal and both sides wanted it.

You're only kidding yourself, Tingkai.
You can't honestly believe that US Corportations WANTED to be limited and told where they can and can't produce their cars?

Labour agreements with the CAW are far more flexible than the American labour agreements. That has allowed Canadian auto plants to become more productive.

I'm going to have to just ignore this, because I've not seen any evidence either way and frankly I don't care.

Once again, you distort reality. The issue is the right-wing paranoia that uses lies to claim Ottawa is screwing the west.

They aren't screwing the west per se right now, Tingkai. But they have done it, and they may do it again if they totally cut off farm subsidies while at the same time passing Kyoto. In one fell swoop they'd destroy the economies of all of the western provinces.

Look at what you have posted. You have repeatedly posted incorrect statements. Your claim that Ottawa screws Alberta doesn’t hold water.

Please, Tingkai.
NEP.
Kyoto.
Bill 11.

My claim is not specifically that Ottawa screws Alberta over, but Ottawa priorizes by votes. Which is entirely true, considering they don't even campaign here. I can't see how you can honestly argue they don't do that. Hell, that's what I'd do when I got in power.

The best you can do is a short-lived energy policy created more than 20 years ago. All the other examples of so-called persecution have been proven false.

It's not so much active persecution, Tingkai, but subtle alienation. Like Chretien stating he doesn't like working with Westerners because they're "different" or his contant battles with Klein over just about everything. Forcing the G8 to take place in Alberta when Klein initially told him we didn't want it, and it took him weeks of convincing to finally foot the security bill for it.

Again, my main complaint is just about how the majority government has too much power. I'd really wish you'd stop twisting this to an alienation thing every time, because it's very easy to get me wrapped up in that.

[Asher]

I've found a fairly good 26-slide presentation on Western Alienation: http://www.canadianstudies.ab.ca/New...Alienation.pdf

According to this survey (done in late 2001), 53% in the West believe they are treated worse than other provinces.
This compares to 45% in the Atlantic, 37% in Quebec, and 12% in Ontario.

43% think the Feds have too much power in Alberta. In Ontario that number is 21%. Why the disparity?

Edit:
And 73% of Albertans think they subsidize the rest of the country too much.
77% of Albertans think they have little say in how the federal government spends money coming from Alberta

84% of BC think the federal leaders don't pay enough attention to them.
77% of BC thinks they don't get their fare share from Ottawa.

[Asher]

I've requested Ming close down this thread because I feel the discussion has run its course several times over.

If any of you still want to debate it feel free to post your own topic and go for it, but I don't think I'll be joining you because I've really surpassed my tolerance for arguing Canadian politics.

As rude as I was to some people, thanks for participating and sorry. I really do feel like I've learned a lot from this thread so it's not all in vain.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
According to this survey (done in late 2001), 53% in the West believe they are treated worse than other provinces. This compares to 45% in the Atlantic, 37% in Quebec, and 12% in Ontario. 43% think the Feds have too much power in Alberta. In Ontario that number is 21%. Why the disparity?

That’s funny. Despite all the money that goes to the Atlantic provinces, Maritimers think they are treated worse than other provinces.

As for the disparity, the answer is simple. People in Ontario waste their time whining about Ottawa. We’re too busy trying to make a living. Meanwhile in Alberta, whining about the Eastern bastards is a daily ritual.

Originally posted by Asher
And 73% of Albertans think they subsidize the rest of the country too much.
77% of Albertans think they have little say in how the federal government spends money coming from Alberta

Sure, and most Albertans probably think that they pay most of the equalization payments, even though they don’t. Most Albertans probably think that they provide most of the taxes to Ottawa. Most Albertans probably think that Ottawa doesn’t spend any money in their province (despite the existence of two major military bases) and other government offices.

Alberta loves its myth of being oppressed by Ottawa. It fits into the Christian persecution mythology. But this myth is not based on facts. It is the mistaken belief that western companies never get handouts. It is based on the mistaken belief that Ottawa does nothing for prairie farmers. It is based on an event that happened 20 years ago.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
I've requested Ming close down this thread because I feel the discussion has run its course several times over.

Just because you don’t want to talk about this topic doesn’t mean that others should be forced to stop. If you’re tired of having your lame theories cut to shreds then just stop posting. But there’s no reason for the rest of us to stop if we don’t feel like it.

Although, I must admit that I do enjoy demolishing your arguments.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Just because you don’t want to talk about this topic doesn’t mean that others should be forced to stop.

Feel free to start your own thread on it. I've been carrying this entire argument for my side, so it'll end once I stop anyway. And I can't ever stop myself from posting in my own threads so I'm going to ask Ming to close it.

Start your own thread if you wish to continue and you can debate with nye/Flubber/RedFred/etc and I won't join.

If you’re tired of having your lame theories cut to shreds then just stop posting. But there’s no reason for the rest of us to stop if we don’t feel like it.

There's no reason for you to act so cocky either, you're giving yourself far too much credit.

Some of your posts have completely baffled me, and I can't understand how anyone can logically think that. Then again, I have troubles looking at the situation from a central Canadian/Liberal perspective.

You haven't changed my mind on this matter, nor anyone else's. You've been wrong quite a few times in here too, it's only human to err.

Although, I must admit that I do enjoy demolishing your arguments.

Just so you know, you haven't demolished anything. I have been wrong in a couple of the points above but the jist of it still stands.

You keep dismissing it as a myth, which is pretty funny to me and most other Albertans, and I'm sure you enjoy doing that.

You may think it's a myth, but we've seen otherwise. We don't get the total shaft from Ottawa, they're still decent beings most of the time, it's just that we don't get the same priority as Ontario, simply because they've got more people. Right or wrong, that's how it is. And while it's like that some of us are tired of FEELING like second class citizens.

Myth or not there's alienation, and Ottawa hasn't actually done anything to prevent that, but has amplified it in recent years.

[Ming]

On the request of the starter of this thread...

Case Closed!