Should Canada adopt a US-style senate

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher

They didn't have to after they made that stupid law requiring massive auto production in Canada.

The "welfare" package for the prairies is only a partial payment, the federal government is forcing the provinces to pick up the rest of the tab.

However, when it comes to Air Canada -- the second they're in trouble, it's time to give them huge subsidies. West Jet doesn't get any.

Air Canada is based where? Ontario.
WestJet is based where? Alberta.

It also makes me wonder why Canadian Airlines didn't get more subsidies while in business to keep a competitive airline industry. Was that because it was a Calgary company as well? The second after Air Canada buys up Canadian (which should have never happened, btw), the federal government threw money at Air Canada.

Let's see how you're doing so far:

1) You claim Ottawa doesn't help prairie farmers. Wrong.
2) You claim that Ottawa will swoop in and help the auto industry. You now admit that you are wrong.
3) You claim that Air Canada is based in Ontario. Wrong.
4) You claim that Westjet does not get help from the federal government. Wrong, Ottawa gave $160 million to all airlines after 9/11

You're batting 0 for 4.

And there is nothing wrong with Ottawa saying that the provinces should help out their own farmers.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Let's see how you're doing so far:

1) You claim Ottawa doesn't help prairie farmers. Wrong.

$800M is only a fraction of what the farmer wanted. And how long did it take for them to get this aid, Tingkai? Want to answer that one for us? How long ago did Western Farmers take their tractors and parade them around in downtown Ottawa in protest?

2) You claim that Ottawa will swoop in and help the auto industry. You now admit that you are wrong.

Huh? I never said that, at all. Ottawa DID swoop in and help the auto industry in a HUGE way, by forcing US auto manufacturers to produce those cars in Canada. Else they wouldn't be there. You do know that, right?

3) You claim that Air Canada is based in Ontario. Wrong.

Quebec, whatever, it's the same difference. Major voting pool, not a minority province.

4) You claim that Westjet does not get help from the federal government. Wrong, Ottawa gave $160 million to all airlines after 9/11

Of which Air Canada got a whopping $100M from. All of the other airlines in Canada got to split the $60M.

And I was talking before 9/11, Tingkai.

And there is nothing wrong with Ottawa saying that the provinces should help out their own farmers.

There is nothing wrong with Ottawa paying the full portion themselves, either. In fact that's what they've done with Air Canada.

[Asher]

I will admit I was wrong about the Air Canada subsidies thing. I was thinking of when Air Canada demanded $4B from Ottawa in aid while at the same time WestJet was arguing that the government shouldn't be giving it any aid.

But Ottawa should have never let Air Canada take Canadian Airlines over in the first place.

But the point still stands: Ottawa prioritizes the needs of the country based upon where their votes are coming from. That's the best way to do it with the current structure of the government.

There is no incentive to help the small minority provinces, so they get a back seat to the needs of Ontario and Quebec. Which is why it took about a year to get ANY kind of farm aid out of Ottawa, and when it did come it was decidedly lacking in funds, while at the same time forcing the ailing provinces to fund the rest. Do you know how hard it is for those provinces to come up with that kind of money since most of their economy is based upon that very same sector the aid money is supposed to bail out?

[KrazyHorse]

When the Alberta Socreds tried to limit freedom of the press, they were blocked by the Supreme Court. Of course, the Albertans *****ed about how this was an example of the goddamn Easterners interfering in provincial rights

And an Alberta newspaper won a Pulitzer that year for their vigorous defense of freedom of the press against the insanity of Bible Bill...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by RedFred
Careful Asher. Your discussion regarding the 'tyranny of the majority' and 'Alberta is not being flagrantly discriminated against now, but was in the past' and 'Alberta is always a net contributer to Confederation' all sound remarkably similar to the same arguements that Quebec separatists use to justify their own politics. Just substitute Quebec for Alberta

I've been noticing lately how similar the two are. Like spoiled brats...

I agree with your first point Boris, but I disagree on the point that each state has more autonomy than each province.

Historically US states had far more power than Canadian provinces. In the last 60 years or so, though, the federal government has given the provinces more and more autonomy, to the point where they probably have more than states in the US (which has been busy centralising federal power). The fact remains, though, that the historical justification for a US-style Senate is simply not present in Canada. We weren't formed as a fundamentally international agreement between colonies; we were created from colonies under the authority of the Crown. Provincial powers were given and extended by the good grace of the Crown and federal government, not acquired from negotiation prior to joining.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
I've been noticing lately how similar the two are. Like spoiled brats...

Spoiled brats because we don't like a country that is too diverse for its own good, while at the same time run by a government that doesn't respect that diversity?

Spoiled brats is a bit harsh, how about frustrated by the inept government?

And why do you talk about history giving us a need for a Senate? Why do you think that matters at all?

The fact remains NOW that provinces are largely autonomous and we are perhaps the most diverse country in the world. At the same time, we have one of the most centralized governments in the world with seemingly unrestricted power and is continually voted in by one specific region due to insane population. The end result is we continually have one or two specific regions voting in a government that's supposed to represent Canadians as a whole, when most of the diverse regions are left out in the cold because they don't form the majority population.

[KrazyHorse]

We don't have a very centralised government, Ashie. I just got through noting that our federal government has weak powers compared to those of the US.
I also doubt we have one of the most diverse nations interprovincially; the diversity isn't geographic, but is present in most communities.

Canadians are one of the most mobile nations on the planet. Your parents weren't born in Alberta. Flubber moved there from PEI.

Alberta's experienced 10% growth in the last 5 years. That's not from loads of baby Albertans; it's from people moving from other provinces. It'll make Alberta stronger in the long run, but that demographic is shifting, Asher...

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
There is no incentive to help the small minority provinces, so they get a back seat to the needs of Ontario and Quebec. Which is why it took about a year to get ANY kind of farm aid out of Ottawa, and when it did come it was decidedly lacking in funds, while at the same time forcing the ailing provinces to fund the rest. Do you know how hard it is for those provinces to come up with that kind of money since most of their economy is based upon that very same sector the aid money is supposed to bail out?

Give it up Asher. All you’re doing is digging yourself deeper into the ground.

The welfare handouts to farmers and farm corporations is in response to the US farm bill passed last month. So to say it took a year for the government to respond is incorrect. The corporate welfare handouts to the airlines also took about a month.

You claim that Ottawa is only providing a “tiny fraction” of what the farmers need.

Let’s see the farmers want a $1.3 billion hand out and Ottawa is giving them $800 million, in other words 60 per cent of what the prairie welfare bums want. That’s hardly a “tiny fraction”

Your claim that western farmers are ignored by Ottawa just doesn’t hold up. The farmers, including those in Alberta, have received billions and billions of dollars in welfare payments during the past 40 years.

Your comparison of the handouts to a trade pact signed 40 years ago is ridiculous. The trade pact didn’t cost Ottawa a single penny. It has created and maintained hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs during the past 40 years. The industry was not in trouble when it was signed.

You also don’t know anything about the auto industry. The Canadian car plants are more efficient than the US plants. This is why the American auto manufacturers have never bothered to challenge the auto trade pact.

Air Canada may have received the largest chunk of the welfare handout, but what do you expect. Air Canada is the largest airline, employing the most people.

All you are doing is displaying the typical Albertan paranoia that is all too often built on incorrect myths about how Ottawa screws the west.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
We don't have a very centralised government, Ashie. I just got through noting that our federal government has weak powers compared to those of the US.

Yet they still have the power to nationalize energy revenues at whim, pester a province about how it implements public health care, etc?

I also doubt we have one of the most diverse nations interprovincially; the diversity isn't geographic, but is present in most communities.

I think we do. Compare ideologies in Alberta to Quebec to Ontario to Newfoundland -- you'll find they're quite diverse. What other country compares?

Alberta's experienced 10% growth in the last 5 years. That's not from loads of baby Albertans; it's from people moving from other provinces. It'll make Alberta stronger in the long run, but that demographic is shifting, Asher...

I don't really think so, KrazyHorse.
Alberta's experienced explosive growth since the 1960s and our demographic still hasn't changed much. Why do you think it's going to be any different now?

[KrazyHorse]

Not racial, Asher. Birthplace.

The reason race isn't changing that much (beyond growth of Asian pop. from foreign immigration) is that the racial makeup is similar across the country. More Asians on the West Coast, more Arabs and North Africans here, but not a dramatic difference.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The welfare handouts to farmers and farm corporations is in response to the US farm bill passed last month. So to say it took a year for the government to respond is incorrect. The corporate welfare handouts to the airlines also took about a month.

The US has always been giving out those subsidies, Tingkai, and you know that. Canadian farmers have been asking for increased subsidies just to compete with US and European farmers since early in 2001, and they finally got them now. And they also found out their provinces have to pick up 40% of the tab of it, which is probably going to be impossible to do so they won't get the money they need.

Your claim that western farmers are ignored by Ottawa just doesn’t hold up. The farmers, including those in Alberta, have received billions and billions of dollars in welfare payments during the past 40 years.

Okay, so let's see here. 11% of Canadian farm revenues are from subsidies. 46% of American farm revenues are from subsidies. The two countries are right next to eachother and direct competitors. Which one is being better looked after by their government? 58% of Europe's farm revenues are from subsidies. Source: http://www.cwb.ca/publicat/nr/2001/032201.shtml

Your comparison of the handouts to a trade pact signed 40 years ago is ridiculous. The trade pact didn’t cost Ottawa a single penny. It has created and maintained hundreds of thousands of manufacturing jobs during the past 40 years. The industry was not in trouble when it was signed.

It's only ridiculous because you don't understand the argument again.
Canada actively negotiated with the US and US companies and took action to get the trade pact. What are they doing about the farm situation right now, Tingkai? Do you see them going to the same lengths now?

You also don’t know anything about the auto industry. The Canadian car plants are more efficient than the US plants. This is why the American auto manufacturers have never bothered to challenge the auto trade pact.

How do you figure? I've actually heard otherwise. My uncle is a manager at the Ford Plant in St. Thomas, Ontario, and he certainly doesn't think highly of Canadian car plants...

All you are doing is displaying the typical Albertan paranoia that is all too often built on incorrect myths about how Ottawa screws the west.

You're right, it's all myths. Ottawa loves us.

Next time Chretien comes to campaign in Alberta I'm going to give him a big hug.
Next time he airs the anti-Klein TV ads here I'm going to write him and thank him for the fine job he's doing.
Next time he tells the rest of the nation blatant lies about Alberta health care I'm going to give him a massive thumbs up.
When they pass Kyoto without a passing thought to how it'll devastate Alberta's economy, I'm going to have sex with him.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Not racial, Asher. Birthplace.

The reason race isn't changing that much (beyond growth of Asian pop. from foreign immigration) is that the racial makeup is similar across the country. More Asians on the West Coast, more Arabs and North Africans here, but not a dramatic difference.

I've never even mentioned race.

I assumed you were talking about political demographic anyway.

[KrazyHorse]

Okay, so let's see here. 11% of Canadian farm revenues are from subsidies. 46% of American farm revenues are from subsidies. The two countries are right next to eachother and direct competitors. Which one is being better looked after by their government? 58% of Europe's farm revenues are from subsidies. Source: http://www.cwb.ca/publicat/nr/2001/032201.shtml

That's just an example of how corrupt the American system is. Overrepresentation of the Midwest has led to ridiculous amounts of money being handed to farmers to continue inefficient family farms.

I thought you were a complainer when it came to equalization payments, Asher.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's just an example of how corrupt the American system is. Overrepresentation of the Midwest has led to ridiculous amounts of money being handed to farmers to continue inefficient family farms.

So Europe is also corrupt then. In fact, EVERYONE is corrupt.

We don't need wheat anyway, right? Who cares if it's not profitable. Just ditch the industry, *SCREW* the provinces who depend on those agriculture revenues! HAH! That's not us, we live in Ottawa/Quebec. Useless farmers!

I thought you were a complainer when it came to equalization payments, Asher.

Equalization payments == subsidies? On what planet?

When everyone else is subsidizing an industry, you have no choice but to follow suit. Otherwise you kill that industry in your country. And we've got a couple provinces right now that depend on that industry (No, Alberta isn't one of them )

[KrazyHorse]

Asher, I thought you were in favour of market capitalism?

Equalization payments == subsidies? On what planet?

Not =, but branches on the same tree. Subsidies are equalisation payments to farming provinces.

The family farm is in a lot of trouble if they can't ever turn a profit, Asher. Farm subsidies are just an incentive to continue in an inefficient endeavour.