Should Canada adopt a US-style senate

[SpencerH]

Not necessarily. If it was by popular vote, Chretien might not be the 'elected PM'. If that was the case you might have a westerner as PM, appointed cabinet ministers by the elected PM, and a Liberal House of commons.

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH
Not necessarily. If it was by popular vote, Chretien might not be the 'elected PM'. If that was the case you might have a westerner as PM, appointed cabinet ministers by the elected PM, and a Liberal House of commons.

How on Earth do you figure a popular vote would put in a western PM over Chretien?

[SpencerH]

I'm not saying it would happen, I'm suggesting it could happen. If Chretien won or lost the popular vote Canada-wide instead of just Quebec you'd have less to complain about eh!

[Asher]

Originally posted by SpencerH
I'm not saying it would happen, I'm suggesting it could happen. If Chretien won or lost the popular vote Canada-wide instead of just Quebec you'd have less to complain about eh!

Recent polls have still put Chretien's support as very good, much better than any other leader in the Liberal party or in the Canadian Alliance.

Voters would vote for some Liberal PM, and then a Liberal House of Commons. It'd be no different.

[Tingkai]

Of course Chretien has strong support. What are the other options. The right wing is split. The NDP are picking a new leader.

Besides, compared to previous PMs, Chretien isn't doing much wrong. He hasn't done a lot of good either.

[Asher]

Perhaps the best solution would be to have the Senate based on proportional representation and be given the power to knock down a bill.

That way it preserves the "one man one vote" ideology that KrazyHorse is in bed with.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
That way it preserves the "one man one vote" ideology that KrazyHorse is in bed with.

Ya go figure. Why is Krazyhouse so adament about this thing called democracy.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Ya go figure. Why is Krazyhouse so adament about this thing called democracy.

While it is technically a democracy, it's still strictly rule of the majority.

If that's what you consider a true democracy, you're not technically wrong but I disagree with that philosophically.

But whatever, trample on the little people. There's not too many of them so they don't matter, at all...

It's pretty damn easy for people living in provinces that are on the receiving end of Ottawa's generosity continually to not see a problem with it, while others who are consistently on the end ignored by Ottawa see problems with it.

Voters in Alberta have been effectively marginalized by this setup, to the point where the Liberals don't even campaign here. Our interests, our needs, and our desires are simply not important. We're a minority. All Ottawa focuses on now is the majority. Good for you, bad for the country as a whole.

Someday you'll see that.

[RedFred]

I voted "No".

Those who favour a US-style senate should study it a little more closely.

The Upper House in Canada is beyond reform. Just scrap it.

[Tingkai]

Asher: You don't really care about minority opinion and the "little guy." You just want to rigged the system so that Alberta controls Canada and the right-wing can gain power through the back door. The funny thing is there is no guarantee that an elected senate would protect the interests of right-wing voters like yourself.

You complain about how the Albertans don't have a voice, but as I have told you many times before, the fault lies with the Albertans. The right wing is divided and fighting among itself. As long as it does, it won't get elected. When the right wing is united, they stand a good chance of being the governing power. That's what happened in the 80s.

No matter how much you whine, Canadians living in Alberta are not oppressed. Alberta is not being screwed. No one is stomping on people in Alberta.

What's really happening here is you're frustrated because you're a conservative and for most of your life the Liberals have controlled Ottawa. You've never really known a conservative federal govenrment. But if you want someone to blame for that, it is the conservative politicians who prefer to fight among themselves rather than working together to become a government.

[Asher]

You know what? It'd be great if you could stick with the arguments presented here instead of constructing your strawmen. Just once.

Originally posted by Tingkai
Asher: You don't really care about minority opinion and the "little guy." You just want to rigged the system so that Alberta controls Canada and the right-wing can gain power through the back door. The funny thing is there is no guarantee that an elected senate would protect the interests of right-wing voters like yourself.

I could say the same for you saying you don't really care about the concept of a democracy, you just want it rigged so that the majority and ONLY the majority have any say in how this country works.

And again, I've never said it would give the right wingers absolute power or even more power -- all I've said is it could prevent the Liberals from having absolute control over every branch of the government, seeing as NDP, CA, whathaveyou may outnumber Liberal seats in the Senate.

Why you think it's funny that there's no guarantee of protection of right wing interests is beyond me, since no one here has said any such thing.

You complain about how the Albertans don't have a voice, but as I have told you many times before, the fault lies with the Albertans. The right wing is divided and fighting among itself. As long as it does, it won't get elected. When the right wing is united, they stand a good chance of being the governing power. That's what happened in the 80s.

Again, you still don't understand my argument. Please read this carefully and thoroughly so we can stop it with this sidebar ****.
The majority governments in Canada have too much power. Whether that majority government is a PC party, a CA party, or a Liberal party -- I don't care. They're basically given full and complete control of the entire country the second they're in office. I think that's outrageous, it's too much power in too few hands. A true democracy shouldn't work like that, IMHO.

No matter how much you whine, Canadians living in Alberta are not oppressed. Alberta is not being screwed. No one is stomping on people in Alberta.

Right now, no.
But historically it has happened.
And there's simply no excuse for Chretien's use of Alberta in the recent federal election, with the running of ads showing the destruction of the General Hospital saying the CA wants to privatize healthcare. It's wrong on so many levels I don't know where to start. And the thing is, the Liberals can get away with that ****. Why? Because they ARE the government. There's NO ONE above them and no one to stop them.

What's really happening here is you're frustrated because you're a conservative and for most of your life the Liberals have controlled Ottawa. You've never really known a conservative federal govenrment.

I remind you I have spent a good chunk of my life in the US, which by Canadian standards has always been a conservative government...

But if you want someone to blame for that, it is the conservative politicians who prefer to fight among themselves rather than working together to become a government.

Again, my beef is that majority governments have too much power. I don't care for how they obtained that power, my point is with the Canadian system whoever gets the most seats (even by a slim margin) in parliament, they have full, complete, and unchecked control over the entire nation -- even when only 40% of Canadians want them in office.

[Boris Godunov]

But if moved to the U.S., he would indeed get what he wants, as the opposite is true here. The liberals are divided while a corrupt conservative oligarchy runs things. Yeah, it's great here, woohoo.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
But if moved to the U.S., he would indeed get what he wants, as the opposite is true here. The liberals are divided while a corrupt conservative oligarchy runs things. Yeah, it's great here, woohoo.

What the hell are you talking about, Boris?

The US government is far less corrupt than the Canadian one. Just look around at Canadian news archives. You'll find fascinating stories about Chretien buying votes in Quebec, "accidental" transfers of billions of dollars into Quebec and BC, the complete and utter "loss" of $1B, the transfer of billions of public dollars into private accounts, the new advertisement scandal, the PM using his leverage to get things done for people in his riding (ie: calling up a bank manager), Chretien firing his most competent and well liked finance minister since the guy was going to run against Chretien in the next leadership race, etc.

You don't know much about Canadian politics, Boris, so just butt out. All governments suck, the idea is to find one that sucks less. You don't know how good you've got it.

[Boris Godunov]

Telling people to butt out because you don't like their input will leave you a very lonely, bored little poster.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Telling people to butt out because you don't like their input will leave you a very lonely, bored little poster.

I'm telling you to butt out because you're persistently posting in a thread that doesn't involve you in the slightest, and you apparently haven't a clue what we're talking about in the first place.

There are hundreds of other threads, go post in them.