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Originally posted by markusf
LOL he only hears what he wants to hear. When you show him how absorb his arguements are he just gettings annoyed and calls you a DL
I call you a DL because your viewpoints and grammar are identical to blackice.
And I hear everything said here, it's just a simple matter that it's the same recycled trash that I've heard for 18 years from Central Canada, so it's nothing new to me.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Originally posted by Asher
I can call for it to be closed, why can't I ask people to leave?
Because then any whiney thread-starter could just start booting people off of a thread who disagreed with his opinions. That would make the boards quite unenjoyable for everyone. In the real world, you have to learn to deal with people who disagree in a civil manner. That's a valuable skill you should practice.
Because I'd rather not delve into the boring nature of Canada.
Wooo, thank you, but isn't that what the entire thread is about?
The simple thing is for you to just not post in here if you don't know anything about the country in question. If you want to find out more, you're on the internet, there are thousands of websites on the matter.
No, the simple thing is for you to just not respond to posts you don't deem worthy of your superior knowledge and all that rubbish.
Another example are Saskatchewan and Manitoba who are getting the cold shoulder from Ottawa when it comes to helping the farmers, simply because they're smaller provinces. The second the Ontario Auto Industry is in trouble, though, the Federal Government swoops in and saves the day.
Same thing happens in the U.S. Senate. The farmers and factory workers get massive aid bills to keep industries afloat that are doomed to die, but inner cities where federal support could lead to massive revitalization are pretty much left to their own devices.
What the hell, Boris? You're confusing provincial and federal governments.
What the hell is the difference when one is talking the rights of the minority? Shouldn't the rights of a provincial minority also be protected against the provincial majority? What the hell is so special about a province that it gets to trample on a minority, but the federal government isn't? What do you think these are, U.S. States?
There are essentially three regions in Alberta: Calgary, Edmonton, and Rural. All three are overwhelmingly rightwing (Edmonton has the odd Liberal but it's still mostly right wing).
There are tiny minorities in all regions that can never have their way (neo-fascists, communists, etc) because they're so tiny and their views so extreme.
I find it really hard to believe that within the borders of Alberta there exist only the right-wingers and then the extreme leftists. There's no center-left and center-right? Come on...this is where numbers help.
Are you saying that in Alberta, provincial elections have the result of a huge, 90% win for the right-winger, and then all that's left are commies and such?
And is Albertan provincial government structured in such a way that the ruling party makes all the rules and there's no check against their power other than the rule of law, which you don't seem to trust?
How small must the minority be for it to be safely ignored?
The "minority" in this case represents about 35% of Canada's popular vote, while the current majority Liberal government received only 40%. There's actually not that much difference between them. But right now, it's ENTIRELY what those 40% of the people wanted, and the 35% who wanted otherwise can be totally ignored. Do you think that's right, Boris?
So I guess it comes down to whether or not you want a ruling system whereby there is no accountability (U.S.) or where it is pretty much absolute (Canada). I prefer accountability over "minority rights" in this instance, I suppose. That's because there is no accountability here, and the assertion of regional minority rights has caused more problems, IMO, than it has solved. It has been from the U.S. States who most benefit from regional minority rights where the U.S.'s most hateful, liberty-restricting and intolerant legislation has arisen. They are the engine of stagnation here.
I call you a DL because your viewpoints and grammar are identical to blackice.
And I hear everything said here, it's just a simple matter that it's the same recycled trash that I've heard for 18 years from Central Canada, so it's nothing new to me.
Your an idiot. Maybe ming can post end this and say that i am not a DL LOL
Join the army, travel to foreign countries, meet exotic people -
and kill them!
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Because then any whiney thread-starter could just start booting people off of a thread who disagreed with his opinions. That would make the boards quite unenjoyable for everyone. In the real world, you have to learn to deal with people who disagree in a civil manner. That's a valuable skill you should practice.
Civilty is overrated and useless online.
And no, Boris, I don't want you to leave because you don't agree with me, I want you to leave because you admit to not knowing anything about the country in question but you still want to keep talking about it. It'd be like me going into an Opera thread and constantly talking about rock music and refusing to leave.
Wooo, thank you, but isn't that what the entire thread is about?
This thread is about reforming Canada's senate to suit Canada's need, not a history of Canada.
No, the simple thing is for you to just not respond to posts you don't deem worthy of your superior knowledge and all that rubbish.
I feel a need to respond to misinformation, what can I say? Just stop posting it.
Same thing happens in the U.S. Senate. The farmers and factory workers get massive aid bills to keep industries afloat that are doomed to die, but inner cities where federal support could lead to massive revitalization are pretty much left to their own devices.
Not quite, Boris, you've also got a population-based House as well as a President who is elected by the population who can veto it.
What the hell is the difference when one is talking the rights of the minority?
Because we're talking about the Federal government vs. the Provincial government. Could you even give me an example where the provincial government can ignore the needs of a minority and still get elected?
Shouldn't the rights of a provincial minority also be protected against the provincial majority? What the hell is so special about a province that it gets to trample on a minority, but the federal government isn't? What do you think these are, U.S. States?
Again, Boris, this doesn't actually apply here. In Alberta we don't need such a system, since the overwhelming majority are right wing anyway. In Quebec, with english and french speaking citizens, they may opt for something similar to a regional senate. I don't know much about Quebec so I'm not going to go into that though.
I find it really hard to believe that within the borders of Alberta there exist only the right-wingers and then the extreme leftists. There's no center-left and center-right? Come on...this is where numbers help.
Actually, you'll find that by US standards Alberta is centrist. Most people here are centrist. It's Canada that's left wing.
Yes, there are center-lefts and other left wingers, but the vast vast majority of people are right or center-right. Dig up election results on google if you want.
Are you saying that in Alberta, provincial elections have the result of a huge, 90% win for the right-winger, and then all that's left are commies and such?
No, Boris, use your brain a bit and think on that.
And is Albertan provincial government structured in such a way that the ruling party makes all the rules and there's no check against their power other than the rule of law, which you don't seem to trust?
The Federal government acts as a check of power on the Alberta government. That's why they're always on our case about what we're doing with health care.
How small must the minority be for it to be safely ignored?
Don't play the hard numbers game. I'm using relative numbers: 40% have complete control in Canada, 35% have zero control. That's not fair. We don't need to set definitive numbers for which groups need representation or not.
So I guess it comes down to whether or not you want a ruling system whereby there is no accountability (U.S.) or where it is pretty much absolute (Canada).
If there's no accountability, how did Watergate happen?
I prefer accountability over "minority rights" in this instance, I suppose.
What makes you think the Liberals are accountable? They've done so many stupid and illegal things over their history and nothing has come from it, at all. No one holds them accountable.
If you want that, take it. Please. We can trade.
What a really stupid thing to say, since you openly confess to knowing nothing about Canada's system yet you're willing to swap?
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Careful Asher. Your discussion regarding the 'tyranny of the majority' and 'Alberta is not being flagrantly discriminated against now, but was in the past' and 'Alberta is always a net contributer to Confederation' all sound remarkably similar to the same arguements that Quebec separatists use to justify their own politics. Just substitute Quebec for Alberta.
Originally posted by Boris Godunov If Canada is need of government reform, that's fine, but I'd advocate looking elsewhere than the Senate to achieve the protection of "minority rights"...
The U.S. Senate was founded on the notion of the sovereignity of the states that were forming a union out of similar interests. One thing I know for a fact is that Canadian government was not founded in the same way and Canadian provinces do not exercise the autonomy U.S. States are given.
I agree with your first point Boris, but I disagree on the point that each state has more autonomy than each province.
Originally posted by RedFred
Careful Asher. Your discussion regarding the 'tyranny of the majority' and 'Alberta is not being flagrantly discriminated against now, but was in the past' and 'Alberta is always a net contributer to Confederation' all sound remarkably similar to the same arguements that Quebec separatists use to justify their own politics. Just substitute Quebec for Alberta.
Hmm. I don't oppose Quebec's separation. In fact, I encourage it.
And 'Quebec is always a net contributer to Confederation' doesn't fly, since they've been a "have not" province for as long as I can remember.
I really do wish Quebec would leave, and I'd also like to see Alberta secede and become a US Territory. But then again, I'm a nutcase. It's just easier for me to move, no matter how much I love the province. It's a shame, too, because it could be so much better with a competent federal system.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Whether Quebec contributes to Canada from an economic standpoint is not a simple question to answer. But every separatist will suggest that they do. They will even suggest that Quebec is a net contributer to transfer payments.
My point was less that you may or may not favour Quebec separation and more that extreme positions are often the result of dangerous oversimplifications of logic.
Or perhaps some people look too much into it and get confused by all the smoke and mirrors.
"The less you see, the more you see".
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
Originally posted by Asher
Another example are Saskatchewan and Manitoba who are getting the cold shoulder from Ottawa when it comes to helping the farmers, simply because they're smaller provinces. The second the Ontario Auto Industry is in trouble, though, the Federal Government swoops in and saves the day.
Bull. You don't know what you are talking about.
OTTAWA (CP) - The federal government will compensate farmers for lower prices resulting from increased U.S. farm subsidies, Prime Minister Jean Chretien confirmed Wednesday, adding he expects provinces to pay 40 per cent of the bailout.
Tingkai, perhaps you should look into the matter yourself before getting all high and mighty on me.
What Ottawa is contributing is a tiny fraction of what's needed.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
You're the one claiming they're getting the cold shoulder from Ottawa and yet Ottawa is putting together a welfare package for farmers.
If you knew anything about agriculture, you would know that the federal government used to hand out money to farmers left right and centre.
The Liberals have reduced this stupidity recognizing that it doesn't make sense to prop up farms that have being losing money for years.
What Ottawa is doing now with the latest hand outs is crazy. It's just going to excalate a subsidy war and the only winners will be farmers, particularly farm corporations, who can sit back and do nothing while the tax dollars roll in.
The auto industry, on the other hand, routinely makes a profit.
By the way, when was the last time Ottawa had to bail out the auto industry?
Originally posted by Tingkai
By the way, when was the last time Ottawa had to bail out the auto industry?
They didn't have to after they made that stupid law requiring massive auto production in Canada.
The "welfare" package for the prairies is only a partial payment, the federal government is forcing the provinces to pick up the rest of the tab.
However, when it comes to Air Canada -- the second they're in trouble, it's time to give them huge subsidies. West Jet doesn't get any.
Air Canada is based where? Ontario.
WestJet is based where? Alberta.
It also makes me wonder why Canadian Airlines didn't get more subsidies while in business to keep a competitive airline industry. Was that because it was a Calgary company as well? The second after Air Canada buys up Canadian (which should have never happened, btw), the federal government threw money at Air Canada.
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
REGINA (CP) - Saskatchewan Agriculture Minister Clay Serby accused the federal government of playing "divide and conquer" with an upcoming farm aid package that he says will require provincial governments to contribute 40 per cent.
"It's very unfair where you have the people who are most injured by the trade injury having to pay," Serby said Tuesday. "If this is what we get at the end of the day, this is a national government doing an effective job of segregating the west and the east and picking winners and losers, and at the end of the day Saskatchewan and Western Canada will be a loser."
Western provinces are seeking $1.3 billion in federal money to offset the effects of a United States farm bill.
Serby says it now appears the aid package, expected to be announced later this week, will total about $800 million and be cost-shared with the provinces 60-40.
"When you take a look at what Saskatchewan's future is and Western Canada's future, it is in agriculture, and we are sick and tired in Western Canada of picking up the ticket," he said.
Why hasn't Canada been pressuring the US about farm subsidies?
"The issue is there are still many people out there that use religion as a crutch for bigotry and hate. Like Ben."
Ben Kenobi: "That means I'm doing something right. "
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