Wherein do the roots of Anit-semiticsm lie?

[chequita guevara]

There aren't really that many martyrs, Lincoln. You'd expect a lot more if they were as persecuted as they claim to have been. I'm not saying they weren't killed. Some definately were. But seeing as how easy it was for the Christians to wipe out all other religions once they got state power, one must conclude the the Romans really weren't trying that hard.

[Lincoln]

Well for one thing I don't call all of the so called Christian movements and power struggles "Christian". The persecution of peace loving Christians is simply a matter of history just like the persecution of like minded Jews is history. I could not care less what roving bands of armed "Christians" do.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Delete Post

[chequita guevara]

Let's put it this way. In their thousand year history, the Romans only banned two religions, the Druids (who practiced human sacrifice) and the Christians. They wiped out the Druids. They didn't bother with the Christians. They could have wiped out the Christians had they so chosen. Instead they confiscated their property, threw some in jail, martyred those that insisted upon it (only one is know to have been thrown to the lions, IIRC). I'm not saying it was easy being a Christian, but they didn't have it as hard as modern Christians like to pretend.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Okay,

I have to bite again. I always thought the catholic church claimed its right as the only real church because it had direct links back to the very first Pope, Peter.

I see many references here saying anti-semitism stems from attrocities during the early period of the church. Are people making a distinction between the Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church when making these statements?

Thanks

Og

[Lincoln]

You really should study up on it some more che. There have been many millions of Christians killed throughout history and I am talking about non-violent ones. In the twentieth century alone there was and is a blood bath. But we are off topic. The point is the roots of Jewish persecution. Like I said, much of it was the result of those who misused the name of Jesus who said to love your neighbor, not kill him.

[chequita guevara]

The Catholic Chruch was founded at the Council of Nicea, in 168 AD (IIRC). From this Council came anti-Semitic pronouncments such as "God hates you!" (directed towards the Jews). The pruporse of the Council was to deal with the growing number of varients of Christianity, especially the Arian heresey. There were other Christian churchs. The Coptic and Armenian and Ethiopean churchs are older than the Catholic church.

The Bishop of Rome claimed primacy because of Peter, but there were contenders, such as the Bishop of Ephesius (IIRC).

[chequita guevara]

Lincoln, I'm well aware of the persecution of Christians, especially by other Chrisitians. What I'm saying is that it wasn't as hard for Christians during the period of Roman persecution of Christianity as Christians like to claim. The Germans were harder on the Christians than the Romans were. Christianity was eradicated from much of the Western Roman empire after its fall and it took hundreds of years to reestablish itself. Luckily for Rome, Alaric, head of the Ostrogoths converted in the 4th Century AD, as the Ostrogoths later took Italy.

[axi]

One thing I still cannot understand is how much attention the Jews are getting. If everybody stopped concerning themselves about the Jews, then there would be no antisemitism to begin with.

If I were to start a thread about anthellenism, it would get lost in the 10th page. Now it's at least the 5th time I see the exact same topic and I bet it will get more than 3 pages long in two days.

[Ned]

Ogie, While some may disipute this, there was only one Church in the Empire after the Council of Nicea. The Calthoic Church. There were some "heretical" branches of Christianity outside the Empire.

This church had a number of "Apostolic Sees" - founded by ones of the original twelve apostles. The See in Rome was founded by both Peter and Paul. Because of this, the bishop of Rome always considered himself the first among equals. This was generally acknowledged in the early church. For example, the Pope had to approve the Canons of the ecumenical councils before they became "law."

In 445, Emperor Valentianian III appointed the Pope "Pontifex Maximus" or high priest. This was an official Roman title from the days of the Republic. Every emperor from the time of Augustus until Gratian was given this title by the Senate. Gratian refused the title -as it required the emperor to officiate at pagan ceremonies. However, by 445, the old pagan religion was banned. Thus the title was given to the bishop of Rome as the official head of the official church of the Roman Empire.

The Pope still retains this title.

However, as power shifted to Constantinople, the Patriarch of Constantinople increasingly began to assert co-equal status with the Pope. In the end, this lead to the great schism.

Today, the Western Church is known as the "Roman" Catholic church. However, in truth, all sects that descend from the Council of Nicea are Catholic - even, IMO, protestant churchs that adhere to its cannons.

[chequita guevara]

Yeah, that always was odd to me. We'd say the Nicean creed in our Episcopal Chruch, "One holy catholic and apostolic church." Confirmation class cleared that up for me.

[Heresson]

He he I remember what one of my favourite historical personalities did. His name was John "the Mad" and he was prince of ?aga? )sold it to Saxon dukes) and of half of G?ogów (both in Silesia). He fought all his neighbours;
little Silesian duchies, Poland, Brandenburg, Bohemia, Hungary. Incredible, isn't it! With only a half of one city.
Anyway of course he lacked money. So when once he incidentally playing some game smashed a window of
a church he convinced the city council that it must have been
those bad Jews that did that. The council knew the truth but got to the point that it's better let the prince rob the Jews not themselves... and he got money this way. He treated priests as bad in fact, and when the pope asked him to visit him and kiss his ring he replied in a quite rude manner.
One of nicer things he did was when he fought his bros
Baltazar and he defeated his army. he sent it all back
to his bros - nude. I wonder why Basilios Bulgaroktonos
couldn't do sth in that manner. It would have finished the tzar as well I guess.
Why am I writting about that?
It's all because of money. Jews were in the east
the owners of uh pubs, kind of tax-collectors of the gentry. Gentry loved Jews! And peasants hated them as well as their urban concurents.

[Bosh]

Anti-semitism also pre-dates Christianity (or at least pre-dates Christianity being the dominant Roman religion). The Jews were one of the Romans least-favorite subject people's what with them revolting all the time and whatnot and were generally not well liked (like, say, how Turks feel about Kurds at the moment) a this lead to a desire among Christians to disassociate themselves from their Jewish roots (especailly after the 70 AD revolt) and having the Jews bear the responsibility for christ killing than romans could possibly be part of this...

[chequita guevara]

I would disagree with you, there. Boshko. The Jews were one of the more respected groups in the Roman Empire because of their devotion to their religion. They were one of two groups that were forgiven by law from having to sacrifice to Roman gods. The Romans were a very religious people, so they admired the piety of the Jews.

Had the Jews been a prosteltyzing religion, and had their rules not been so strict, the religion likely would have gorwn quite large. One of the reasons for the spread of Chrisitanity was that people could now become "Jewish" without having to get circumcized and stuff.

While Judea had always been a problem province, it wasn't until a couple of ham-handed Roman govenors really provoked the Jews that they got rebellious. This was after Christ.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Anti-semitism pre-dates the Catholic church. It dates back to early Christianity, to the seperation of Christianity as a seperate religion and not merely another Jewish sect. It was certainly before the fall of Jerusalem.

If you go back that far in the history of the church you find that the Christians were indeed persecuted by Jews. They considered Christianity to be subversive, and since the Christians consorted with gentiles without requiring them to obey Jewish law, they were considered to be unclean.