Wherein do the roots of Anit-semiticsm lie?

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ok I'll play the typical non-worldy (read not up on his European History) US guy here? But in light of all that is going on where/how did all the anti-semite stuff begin. I know it predates establishment of Israel and prolly starts in earnest somewhere in the 1600-1800's.

Can someone please give some details (without too much propaganda please)?

[Kropotkin]

From a strictly theoretical perspective the anti-semitism of today could have its roots in the so called middleman phenonomen. In the pre-moderns society there where several tasks and jobs that for some reason(s) wasn't acceptable by the society. Thus such tasks where done by groups and individuals that where excluded from it. They filled a important role in the economy but wasn't accepted by others.

Romani and many others are typical example of travellers that did such things. Jews as well as specialists and money-lenders in towns. This form of "racism" is very old and also have a different depth than racism against people on the other side of a sea.

[chequita guevara]

Building on what Kropotkin has written, anti-Semitism has two main sources. First is their "role" as Christ-killers, and the Jews failure to become Christian as the latter sect was growing. Christianity never really forgave the Jews for failing to accept the revealed truth that Jeshua ben Joseph was the messiah. Anti-semitism is almost as old as Christianity itself.

The more immediate problem, however, as that the Church forbade Christians from engaging in money-lending or profiting from trading. According to the church, work must be the only source of profit. Jews, hoever, not being Christian, weren't bound by this rule. As time went by, Jews were legally excluded from more and more trades (they were forbidden to own land, for example) and more and more had to go into trading and money-lending. No one like money-lenders, even if they are necessary.

A third reason is that as a powerless minority, they were easy to scapegoat. Got problems in your city BLAME THE JEWS!

[Lincoln]

The Catholic church and other religious groups persecuted Jews because they supposedly killed Jesus Christ. Martin Luther did not care for Jews either. Of course religious people killed each other as well but the Jews seemed to always be in the crossfire. When they were persecuted for religious reasons many lies were told about them to stir up animosity. Some people still believe those lies. They have their good and bad like any other group of people but history is full of referrences to Jews doing this or that so there is plenty of material for people to use if they want to find an excuse for hating an entire people.

[sparkplug]

It comes from Hell

[Lincoln]

Actually Jews were not allowed to practice "usury" among their own people at least.

[Apocalypse]

Lincoln: It kinda sounds like you're attacking the Catholic Church. Yes, there have been bad experiences in the past, but the Catholic Church is very Jew friendly right now.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Interesting. Most of this is what I had heard/suspected. I merely thought most of it stereotyping. (Rich Jew moneylender etc.) The Christ-Killer reference obviously. I wasn't quite aware of the Church rules on profit generation and ultimately ability to own land. So are we saying then that the roots of anti-semiticism lie within the Catholic Church? That if the catholic church had simply allowed more tolerance to jews and allowed them ability to work more traditional careers much of the probelm would have been eliminated?

If this is the case then multigenerational impacts of anti-semite feeling appear to be a difficult habit to break. I wonder why the feeling was not as strongly exported to the US with the number of Euro settlers? Perhaps it is a dillution affect considering influx of Pacific Rim immigrants. Regardless, news tends to implicate Black segments of US populace as being anti-semetic. Is this simply due to more of the socio-economic disparities (playing into the money-lender rich cat stereotype) or is it due to a large influx of Muslim attitudes being adopted by the black community? Or is the news completely off base regarding anti-semitic feelings of blacks?

Interesting, indeed.

Looks like a cross posted a bit... LOL

[chequita guevara]

Anti-semitism pre-dates the Catholic church. It dates back to early Christianity, to the seperation of Christianity as a seperate religion and not merely another Jewish sect. It was certainly before the fall of Jerusalem.

The reason why it didn't take here in the US as strongly is because the US has no state religion, where as the European countries did. Interestingly, there is one European country that has no history of anti-Semitism, Ireland. Because the Irish and the Jews were both oppressed by the English, the Irish got along well with the Jews.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ok Anti-semite feelings in Europe.

Do they predate Catholic Church?

[Ned]

I think it began in Rome during the great fire. Nero rounded up the Jews as suspects. At that time, Christians were primarily a Jewish sect in Rome. They were rounded up as well.

But the "orthodox" Jews distinguished themselves from Christian Jews and blamed the fire on the Christians. The Roman persecution of the Christians began. The Cristian did not forget.

Later, during the Crusades, the Jews were treated as infidels just as much as Moslems. They were severely persecuted in Europe and massacred in the Holy Land. The hatred was openly fanned by the church.

The church viewed "usury" as a sin. At one point the Pope actually said that Europe was being brought into ruin by the Jews and usury.

The Jews were forced to leave "Spain" during this period (unless they converted) and settled in England. But their persecution continued there as well. In 1264, there was a general massacre. In 1290, they were expelled from England. Shortly thereafter, they were expelled from France. They moved to a place on the borders of Poland and Russia, known as the Pale. where the Western church's influence was minimal.
Jews were still numerous in the Holy Roman Empire, but they too were continually massacred and forced to move East - to the Pale.

When the Protestant reformation began, the counter-reformation also began. In one form, this was known as the Inquisition. In Spain, the Pope let the Spanish do their own thing.

What the Spanish did was round up the Jews who had converted and tortured them until they "confessed." If they refused to confess, they burned them at the stake.

After a time, the crusader spirit lessened in Europe and the Jews began to move back to the West. But even though the hatred was reduced, it remained strong.

The Jews thought that they could live peacefully in the West. But they found out differently with the Dreyfus affair. This spawned the Zionist movement - and the rest is pretty much well known.

[Apocalypse]

Yes, especially since the Catholic Church hasn't been around since the beginning of Christianity.

[Lincoln]

Originally posted by Apocalypse
Lincoln: It kinda sounds like you're attacking the Catholic Church. Yes, there have been bad experiences in the past, but the Catholic Church is very Jew friendly right now.

No, I was just pointing out that both Catholics and Protestants persecuted Jews in the past. Like Che said though, antisemitism pre-dates both churches though.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
But the "orthodox" Jews distinguished themselves from Christian Jews and blamed the fire on the Christians. The persecution of the Christians began. The Cristian did not forget.

I've never heard this. The Christians were singled out because they seemed happy when Rome burned, because they thought it was the end of the world (insane millenarian cults). The Jews were a special group within the Roman empire (there may have been one or two others), in that they weren't required to worship Roman gods. Jewish piety impressed the heck out of many Romans, and when Judaism-lite came along (Christianity, Judaism without all the rules), many jumped for it.

Christianity, despite its claims, was never severely persecuted in Rome. Yes, it was illegal, but Rome had a sort of, don't ask, don't tell policy. People who were martyrs volunteered to be martyrs in order to spread the faith.

Given this sort of fanaticism, it's small wonder that the early Christians viewed Judaism's refusal to convert as a betrayal. In fact, the whole Christian concept of sin and evil and the devil also dates to this period and is related to their growing rhetorical attacks on the Jews.

There's a very interesting book about this called The Origins of Evil.

[Lincoln]

"Christianity, despite its claims, was never severely persecuted in Rome"

you are joking of course...