Germany refuses to hand over evidence

[Sirotnikov]

In their minds justice is not served by killing a prisoner, so why should they aid a miscarriage of justice?

It's different justice.

They have a disagreement with the American penal code.

Justice is not about penal codes. Justice is about getting the truth to come out and punishing the responsible.

Just because I disagree with the singapoure penal code, which punishes vandalism by cane beating, doesn't mean that I will work to obstruct the singapoure justice system.

If I will, that will be ethno-centric of me.

It's perfectly reasonable.

If you thought about it for half a minute you might see the difference that crops up when you attempt to present the situation in this way.

they require that this specific evidence not be used to help put someone to death.

They require Americans to change their moral code in this case, as a pre-condition for helping reach justice.

Germany doesn't require that all dp cases in the US stop before they hand over evidence

The extent doesn't matter - it's the same principle.

By facilitating the execution of a prisoner, they become complicit, both morally and legally in the death of that prisoner. Their moral stance is that the dp is wrong. Why should they help someone do something they believe is wrong?

Hmm... because they are comitted to the truth and justice?

They become a complicit in the conviction of that prisoner. The decision of whether to execute him is solely American.

The point is that they are willing to prevent justice being done, to assure that their own moral code will be upheld.

[KrazyHorse]

Siro, I'm assuming that you'll be behingd Kissinger's extradition to the ICC then, right?

[Sava]

BeBro:

My mom was born in a refugee camp near Berlin in 1949 in a communist controlled area. My grandparents and their children escaped the communists and fled to America in 1958.

What's your point?

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Sava
What's your point?

That was exactly my thought about your previous post

[Sava]

My point is the US liberated Germany from the Nazis, and kept the Western part out of control of the communists. And now, Germany seems to have forgotten the sacrifice the American soldiers made.

[KrazyHorse]

[BeBMan]

No, we haven´t forgotten that. But we can´t break simply our constitution from one day to another. And the official reaction from the US seems much cooler, so I don´t understand the whining here...

[BeBMan]

KH, how dare you...

[Sava]

Seriously though, I don't know sh!t about this subject. I'm just talking out of my ass again.

[Boris Godunov]

Germany should break its own laws and bend over for everything the U.S. wants because 60 years ago we prevented a communist takeover?



In that case, the U.S. should be cowtowing to French demands for their help in the American Revolution. Such brilliant logic.

[Sirotnikov]

KH - If Kissinger comitted crimes against the german people and is brought to trial in germany (if they succeed to do that) then, i'd support giving any needed evidence.

I'd support the US right to decide not to extrodite him. But that at least would be a honest "screw you".

Germany is "We'll extrodite him only if you promise not to hurt him".

Furthermore, the ICC is an international court , right?

I object to it, because I don't believe that there can be an impartial international authority. It's gonna end up the same political citrcus the UN is.

Therefore, it's better to admit that there can't be fully impartial trial, and try people in states for crimes comitted against them.

Milosevic should have been trialed in yugoslavia (what's left of it) imo.

[KrazyHorse]

And trials for those involved in terrorist plots against the US will be fair and impartial? Dream on, Siro...

If the Canadian government was petitioned to turn over evidence that would be used to convict and execute a woman in Nigeria of adultery then I'd be tremendously pissed off if we did it.

This isn't forcing your morality down somebody else's throat; it's making moral decisions about your own actions. You don't help people do things that you think are morally wrong.

[Sava]

no Boris, they should do the right thing and hand over evidence that will help prove that guy is a dirty terrorist.

It's my understanding that friends do favors for each other. The US definitely did Germany a favor in defeating communism. That was only a little over 10 years ago. I don't blame you for not understanding that. Only a few people seem to have an understanding of honor.

[Lincoln]

BeFro,

And except that a war has nothing to do with normal law that is used during peace time. Or are you seriously saying that death penalty is the same as death in combat action during war time, when two sides use armed forces?

Yes there is a difference between war and peace time laws but the morality behind them is the same. In war the enemy is killed to protect the society. Killing is seen as a justification because of the greater good that it brings to society.

In peace time there is the exact same justification made by use of the death penalty.

If a society views the death penalty as 'barbaric' then they should not engage in war, and they certainly should not kill a single person unless that particular person is trying to kill them. Killing people is either morally justified or not. I respect pacifists because they are at lest consistant. I also respect societies that apply the death penalty fairly. But calling it barbaric on one hand and not on the other is hypocrisy.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ecthelion
How long has it been since we killed people in a war anyway? 60 years?

Don't forget about those home grown terrorists I mentioned above. Simultaneous suicides? Really?


Let's just suppose that we waived the death penalty for the terrorists we catch. That means that they'll be in jail indefinitely, which will incite further terrorist attacks probably involving hostage taking. I wonder what your people will say should this group of terrorist be subsequently found all hanging in their cells?

How much will Americans have to endure to resolve the little problem your country left us with 47 years ago?