Germany refuses to hand over evidence

[KrazyHorse]

No it isn't, Lincoln.

We have the ability to imprison murderers indefinitely. By choosing a more lethal option than necessary we become murderers. During wartime it is imposible to defend against masses of armed men by attempting to apprehend them as we apprehend criminals, therefore the killing that takes place becomes self-defense.

[Lincoln]

The justification is the same. I used to work as a prison guard. The option of life imprisonment endangers the lives of both the fellow prisoners and the guards, let alone the public if he escapes.

[KrazyHorse]

Strangelove, did you just turn the logic switch in your brain off?

Firstly, what problem are you referring to? 47 years ago is 1955. What did East Germany do in 1955 that caused terrorists to attack the US in 2001?

Seondly, the notion that imprisoning Al Qaeda terrorists will cause Al Qaeda to attack the US while executing them won't is just plain laughable...

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Lincoln
The justification is the same. I used to work as a prison guard. The option of life imprisonment endangers the lives of both the fellow prisoners and the guards, let alone the public if he escapes.

How many murders of prisoners and prison guards take place in any given year? How many of these were committed by those who were already in jail for a capital crime? The safety of the prisoners, the guards and the general public can all be reasonably assured.

The death penalty would not be even close to effective at doing anything about the problem of prison violence unless it were applied wholesale...

[Lincoln]

Prisoners are constantly killed in prison. It ususally is just local news. I worked at the Utah State prison for 4 years and there were several people killed when I was there. That is pretty typical. The lifers have nothing to lose so the only option is to confine them in what they call a strip cell which is a concrete hole where the inmate is left naked so that he cannot use anything as a weapon on himself or on a guard or medical officer etc. That to me is cruel and unusual punishment.

[KrazyHorse]

RIght, I know it happens and that prison is a relatively dangerous place, compared to outside world, but I don't think that killing murderers instead of sending them to jail will end up saving enough lives to justify it.

[Lincoln]

Oh well. I'll have to sleep on that idea. See you later...

[KrazyHorse]

Bye. Just as a last note, in Canada the number of murders per annum is around the 500 mark, while the number of inmates murdered is usually ~4 per year and it's been 15 years since a guard was murdered in the line of duty. This suggests to me that imprisonment is a fairly effective safety system for all involved...

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by BeBro
Funny discussion. As already said by other posters this is due to a rule in our constitution. Should we simply abandon our constitution (and EU law)? Would another country (let´s say, the US ) do the same?

Or does someone prefer a Germany that has no problem with breaking his own laws? Last time we did that on a large scale was between 33 - 45, the results weren´t really great, so I think our constitution is nothing to play around with easily...

As Dino and I stated before only a few are actually making a big deal out of this. Those who want to turn this into a moral crusade and those who want to just argue. those actually involved and those with enough sense to know better have moved on.

[markusf]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Bye. Just as a last note, in Canada the number of murders per annum is around the 500 mark, while the number of inmates murdered is usually ~4 per year and it's been 15 years since a guard was murdered in the line of duty. This suggests to me that imprisonment is a fairly effective safety system for all involved...

right and 60% of the murders are commited by people who have been released from prison. The US is even worse they have a 80% repeat offence rate with the convicts they release.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by markusf


right and 60% of the murders are commited by people who have been released from prison. The US is even worse they have a 80% repeat offence rate with the convicts they release.

The recidivist murder rate is astonishingly low, markus. That's because we imprison our murderers for something like 3 times as long as the US does, on average...

Unless you were suggesting that we apply the death penalty to thieves as well?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Lincoln
If a society views the death penalty as 'barbaric' then they should not engage in war, and they certainly should not kill a single person unless that particular person is trying to kill them. Killing people is either morally justified or not. I respect pacifists because they are at lest consistant. I also respect societies that apply the death penalty fairly. But calling it barbaric on one hand and not on the other is hypocrisy.

Good point. I wholly agree.

As to pacifists, I say we draft them anyway, but station them between the enemy and our troops to protect the enemy from us and us from the enemy. The pacifists can hand out flowers to both sides and call for peace. Perhaps they can actually do some good.

Pacifists should be actively seeking peace, and not be cowards hiding behind idealist bullsh*t mumbo-jumbo.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Unless you were suggesting that we apply the death penalty to thieves as well?

There's no need to go that far. Severing one of thier hands from thier body will be enough.

[Ecthy]

You guys seem to think killing another man is the only way to achieve justice.

Do you honestly think there's no such thing as laws, courts and prisons in Germany?

Silly kids.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Sava
no Boris, they should do the right thing and hand over evidence that will help prove that guy is a dirty terrorist.

First, the U.S. should do the right thing and drop the pursuit of the death penalty in this case. That's all the U.S. needs to do, and then the evidence is ours. You're not understanding that Germany isn't witholding the evidence unconditionally. All they need is a guarantee the death penalty won't be used.

It's my understanding that friends do favors for each other.

If within the bounds of the law, fine. But mobsters do favors for each other, too. It would be against German law to hand over the evidence. Is this that hard for you to comprehend?

The US definitely did Germany a favor in defeating communism.

The U.S. did not defeat communism, Communism defeated communism.

That was only a little over 10 years ago. I don't blame you for not understanding that. Only a few people seem to have an understanding of honor.

Breaking your own laws to help the U.S. execute someone is not honorable. In fact, executing people isn't honorable. You have a strange concept of honor.

And considering the U.S. slapped steel tariffs on the EU while at the same time asking for support against Afghanistan (which, btw, Germany gave whole-heartedly), what does the U.S. know about honor, or doing favor for friends? Utter hypocrisy.

Oh, and then there's the U.S. refusal to allow their citizens to be tried for war crimes at the Hague. Why should a European country give a damn about the U.S. justice system, if the U.S. doesn't give a damn about theirs?

Just for you: