Alberta is rich with oil, but what has it got to show for it?

[KrazyHorse]

That's silly, Asher, and isn't politically feasible.

I'm asking if the people of Alberta would swallow a watered down Alliance/PC union to repeal Kyoto.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
That's silly, Asher, and isn't politically feasible.

Why not?

I'm asking if the people of Alberta would swallow a watered down Alliance/PC union to repeal Kyoto.

The PC union wouldn't do much at all. Look at how many votes they got...

How many PCs did Alberta elect last election in the first place?

My question for you is will the NDP unite with the Natural Law party to gain more votes?

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Asher

Why not?

Take a poll...

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Take a poll...

KrazyHorse, I think you're grossly underestimating how enraged Albertans are once you play with their oil money. It's the same type of reaction when you play with Alberta's oil money as when you play with an elderly lady's breasts.

We don't like it when people mess with it.

The NEP was the first straw, and ever since then most Albertans have had a huge dislike for the Liberals.

Now they're insisting on signing the Kyoto agreement, which will probably have a similar effect on Alberta as the NEP is.

Do you honestly think Alberta will continue to be content? More money leaves our province into federal coffers than enters, the government has consistently played with our "lifeblood" in stupid, stupid ways based on their own agenda, and has politically ignored Alberta for over a decade.

If Kyoto passes, can you please tell us the purpose of staying in Canada? I can't seem to see it.

And the last poll results regarding the federal government of ours that I've seen said 69% of Canadians think the Federal Government is corrupt. If 69% of CANADIANS do, imagine how high this number is in Alberta.

[KrazyHorse]

Please cite some sort of poll that would demonstrate this isn't only a viewpoint of the looney right Ameriphile sector (which you're an inhabitant of)...

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Please cite some sort of poll that would demonstrate this isn't only a viewpoint of the looney right Ameriphile sector (which you're an inhabitant of)...

There are no polls.

You don't need a poll to see that Alberta REALLY hates the Federal government.

Why else would we not elect them on a constant basis?

Just because there aren't any polls doesn't mean the movement doesn't exist, KrazyHorse.

Perhaps King Jean is taking your approach on this and thinking Alberta will put up with all of the **** you guys throw at us. Why would we do that? Hmm?

[KrazyHorse]

Why wouldn't there be a poll if movement was important enough?

[Asher]

Because all of the major political leaders don't want to separate. They insist we must work with Canada, and set up firewalls to protect us from your greedy little hands instead.

But quite clearly, if Kyoto passes their opinions will change.

[Asher]

I've found a poll from January 2001.

http://www.westernhomerule.ca/arguments.html

In late January of 2001, a COMPAS poll found that 43% of Albertans said they are growing less satisfied with the Canadian constitutional arrangement. No fewer than 47% said they want constitutional changes to limit Ottawa’s control over provincial government policy and on how much Ottawa can take from Alberta taxpayers. (Other polling has found that Saskatchewanians feel more alienated from Ottawa than any other province.)
On the other hand, the poll found that only 7% of Albertans would want to separate from Canada (as against 28% of Quebecers).
“Alberta has a great deal of frustration [with Ottawa],” Roger Gibbins, president of the Canada West Foundation, said at the time. “It boils up, but there’s no outlet.”

So in January 2001, only 7% wanted to separate.

BUT

In July of 2001, an Ipsos-Reid poll found that the percentage of westerners who favor immediate separation from Canada was 11% (see preceding Item re 7% figure). On the other hand, 26% say they would favor separation in 10 years if the federal government doesn’t undergo a major facelift by then.

Notice how the figure is steadily growing?

Right now most people are taking a "wait and see" approach. Mainly the next election. If the Liberals get in AGAIN, and Kyoto passes, the 47% "dissatisified" will most likely start leaning towards separation because it doesn't appear to be likely for anything to change.

[KrazyHorse]

Those figures seem to be what I thought they'd be. If it hits 30% I'll start to be worried, since we've lived with lot worse than that for the last 30 years.

7 years ago, in the best poll of all, separation got a 49.5% rating here...

What particular constitutional changes do you feel would abate alienation? Would this be the one that gives every province equal number of seats in more powerful Senate, irrepective of population? Is there something else you feel would help?

By the way, I'm getting a little tired of you claiming that I've "thrown **** at you", given that I'm not a member of the government and have never voted for a ruling federal government's party. If it's lighthearted, then I'm fine with it (as my redneck Albertan comments are - well, usually ), but I'm getting a bad vibe from you right now...

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Those figures seem to be what I thought they'd be. If it hits 30% I'll start to be worried, since we've lived with lot worse than that for the last 30 years.

I wish Quebec would separate, and see how well they do without our transfer payments. Maybe then Canada could go unilingual too.

What particular constitutional changes do you feel would abate alienation? Would this be the one that gives every province equal number of seats in more powerful Senate, irrepective of population? Is there something else you feel would help?

An equal number of seats in a more powerful Senate is a huge step in the right direction.

I believe there should also be a cap on per capita contribution to equalization payments. Right now there's far too much money leaving Alberta to fund the same provinces for decades on end which never show any signs of real improvement. It's really disheartening.

And I'd also support the ability for individual provinces to "opt out" of Kyoto.

By the way, I'm getting a little tired of you claiming that I've "thrown **** at you", given that I'm not a member of the government and have never voted for a ruling federal government's party.

The government you support would be far worse for Alberta.

If it's lighthearted, then I'm fine with it (as my redneck Albertan comments are - well, usually ), but I'm getting a bad vibe from you right now...

Well, you tend to take the position of defending the government's action, and in doing so you've told me that you don't necessarily disagree with it.

And if you don't disagree with it, then you might as well agree with it and support it.

[KrazyHorse]

Asher, I can't remember the last time I was actually mad at you during one of these discussions. You seem to fly off the handle pretty easily when it comes to this subject, though...

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Asher, I can't remember the last time I was actually mad at you during one of these discussions.

Does this mean you're mad at me now, or not?

You seem to fly off the handle pretty easily when it comes to this subject, though...

If you put any true conservative through the hell of Canadian Federal Politics they'd become quite frustrated pretty quickly as well

[KrazyHorse]

No, it doesn't mean I'm mad at you. Just constantly surprised at the great bursts of feeling you come out with...

[Flubber]

Oh Asher

The ideology of youth . . . quoting facts and figures about events you were never part of and passing judgements on things you have never experienced ( note: citing what your father has done does not help your arguments) . . . But there were several interesting points so I thought I would address a couple of things you said in the various threads and just make a few random observations as well



1. Do you realize how many people that live in Alberta come from other provinces and still have a strong emotional attachment to those provinces and would not like the idea of their frinds and families being in a separate country ?? I recently came here and I like the low taxes but ceasing to be Canadian I work at a firm with about 100 people in Calgary-- my rough estimate of the number that were born in Alberta would be less than 25 and I think thats typical-- do you seriously expect these people would abandon Canada over MONEY ???

2. Your arguments seem to be generally to the far right and ignore anything other than the financial aspects of things. For example, the main reason the BC offshore has not been developed (oil) has been environmental concerns while yopu seem to think it was some sort of leftist mismanagement. I'm no fan of the NDP but taking some care of the environment does not necessarily strike me as a bad thing

3. You are right on a number of things in this and the other thread-- Alberta does pay out a lot in transfers ( and its irrelevant whether its direct or indirect as you too argued over there) and a large reason that the eastern provinces lead the country in growth is the simple statistical fact that it is easier to have a greater percentage gain from a smaller economy.

4. However, to attribute Alberta's wealth to good government is somewhat misleading-- its easy to govern when there are billions in direct royalties coming in

5. To attribute some of the smaller percentages I have seen attribute to the oil and gas industry is again misleading. Apart from direct royalties there are the multitudes of spin-offs that come from having the industry headquartered in calgary-- I am a petroleum lawyer and if the oil and gas industry dries up here (hypothetical) then I doubt I would be here for long. . . Alberta is working hard at diversification but Calgary is still very much an oil town.

6. There are many things about Canadian transfer payments I do not like and the federal clawback as poorer provinces get ahead is one of them. For example, on Hibernia royalties the province loses something like 80 cents from transfers for every dollar of royalty receiver. Thats why the province is quite frankly not that interested in royalties on projects like Hibernia or the nickle mine in Labrador-- they get so little out of the royalties that they bargain them away for a few more jobs.

7. All your arguments seem based on money and a country and the issues they face are much more than that. Its all well and good to debate transfer payments and tax rates but when the reality of an unemployment statistic is a 53 year old fisherman, who after 35 years in an industry working back breaking hours, faces having to move from his town of 200 . . . unable to sell his house etc because the fishery has collapsed. . . . well lets just say its not an easy decision-- then to have some 18 year old silver-spoon Albertan kid assume he is LAZY-- not good

8. Other provinces share rants at the federal government. The Chrestien administration seems tired and old. But more generally , I know in newfoundland there is a general feeling that the fishery gets short shrift and was bartered away to to foreigners in deals designed to help Ontario and Quebec industry.

9 Statistics do often reflect the truth-- Newfoundland is booming or more accurately, St. John's and area is booming while smaller fishing communities are still hurting . . So the economy is a bit of a contradiction with clear winners and losers.


Thats all for now. I could have gone through that other fourteen page thread and responded to more stuff but I just wanted to say that I'm encouraged to see a young person with so much interest in the future of this country. I just wonder if your attitudes will be so cut and dried 10 years from now , particularly if you or Alberta face economic hardship. because when I listen to you Asher, I hear facts and figures and " its our oil" but I never hear anything about what a country or a province is other than the MONEY. I hope my country will always be more than that. AS for you, perhaps you will emigrate to the States as , after all, pay is higher and taxes are lower.