Alberta is rich with oil, but what has it got to show for it?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Look at Alberta's expenses vs. BC's expenses. Tell me that it's only lean because of oil revenue.

Okay, it is only lean because of oil revenues.

The Alberta government are big spenders compared to BC and Ontario.

Alberta spends $6,455 per capita
B.C. spends $6,219 per capita
Ontario spends $5,545 per capita

All figures based on 2001-02 budgets and 2001 census.

Alberta expenditures: $19.2 billion
population: 2.974 million

B.C. expenditure: $24.3 billion
population 3.907 million

Ontario expenditure: $63.270 billionh
populaiton 11.410 million

[notyoueither]

Did I hear a wind blow? Maybe it was a small mammal scuttering about.

[David James]

Tingkai,

Give it up! Spare us all the dreary excuse making and acknowledge that in the past 15 or so years Alberta has done a commendible job of using its oil revenues to invest in other areas to help diversify its economy. Alberta should be held as an example of what to do with resource revenues, not attacked because it has them.

[Asher]

David James:

Maybe it all comes down to jealousy on Tingkai's part.

Alberta has had a consistent right-wing government for ages, and we're benefitting from that with wise investments like the Heritage Fund which effectively stabilizes the province from the typical boom/bust, how we're soon to be debt free, and have lowered the tax burden for all Albertans (rich or poor), while at the same time creating the healthiest economy and best area for businesses to invest and grow.

Alberta is more than oil, and I don't think you'll realize that until you see how nicely Alberta will ride out the next time oil prices drop to $10/barrel (Which isn't going to happen anytime soon, what with poor US/Saudi relations and possible Iran attacks and Iraq, etc)

(PS: The low budget figures you used in BC are due to the quasi-conservative government that is now in power, and has cut government spending left and right shaving billions off of the budget -- try looking at their budget from 1999 or so when they had the NDP. And isn't it amazing that BC's deficit is still twice what Alberta takes in in oil revenue? Surely that should sound alarms in your head telling you that it's quite obvious Alberta doesn't have a healthy budget just because of oil.)

[RedFred]

"quasi-conservative"

Actually, I was pleased to see that we are not in as bad shape as I thought.

It might be interesting to look at all the advantages that both Ontario and Quebec have due to their size, economic clout and privileged place in Confederation and see what they have to show for it.

[Asher]

Here are some interesting figures about how Alberta's economy has diversified, Tingkai:

[Imran Siddiqui]

What has it got to show for it?

Hell, Alberta seems like the best Canadian province of them all from down here. We'll take it from you if you don't like it .

[markusf]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
What has it got to show for it?

Hell, Alberta seems like the best Canadian province of them all from down here. We'll take it from you if you don't like it .

western canada should seperate from the east!

I think canada will join the states sooner or later. Hell canada is pretty much a part of the USA as it stands, why not join it and get all the bennifits?

[Asher]

With each passing day it seems more desirable to become a US Territory like Puerto Rico rather than stay a Canadian province.

If Chretien actually ratifies the Kyoto agreement, I guarantee Canada it'll be a NEP 2.0 for Alberta. We will not be pleased, in the slightest.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Asher
If Chretien actually ratifies the Kyoto agreement, I guarantee Canada it'll be a NEP 2.0 for Alberta. We will not be pleased, in the slightest.

You guys got NEP 1 repealed by voting in Mulroney, correct? (hazy on this)

What sort of leverage will you use to get Kyoto repealed if it's ratified?

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You guys got NEP 1 repealed by voting in Mulroney, correct? (hazy on this)

Here's a fun article on the NEP: http://www.nationalpost.com/content/...11699oil2.html

Some excerpts:

The NEP was billed as a nationalistic, fiscally responsible document. In reality, it was the biggest and most unfair tax grab in Canadian history.

For the first time, new federal tax royalties were imposed on all domestic production and exports alike.

Billions of dollars worth of these taxes were then unfairly diverted to Canadian-owned oil companies only in the form of exploration grants. Ottawa was turning the business into a system of political handouts. Worst of all, the feds expropriated without compensation a sizeable percentage of discoveries or future finds on leased lands retroactively. The U.S. Congress reacted angrily.

Back home in Alberta, tempers flared. Premier Peter Lougheed launched litigation that eventually struck down the export taxes and other regulations because they were illegal under the Constitution.

It's interesting to note that Ottawa was run by the same spendthrifts in charge of Canada today.

Western oilmen turned to the Tory leader, Brian Mulroney, and his loosely structured coalition in the election of 1984. This alliance included alienated westerners, Ontario's "Big Blue" Progressive Conservatives and Quebec's nationalists willing to be federal Tories. Mulroney, elected in 1984, delivered to all factions.

Westerners were over-represented in his cabinet and Alberta's pet peeves were addressed: The NEP was gutted, oil and natural gas prices were deregulated, free trade with the U.S. was negotiated, Petro-Canada was privatized and foreign ownership restrictions were virtually eliminated.

The arrangement worked, until Mulroney and his Tories sold out the West. His cabinet diverted a multibillion-dollar maintenance contract to Bombardier in Montreal from Winnipeg's Bristol Aerospace after the western-based company had won the contract fair and square in a sealed-tender bidding process.

Immediately after that fiasco, Albertans and other westerners fled the Tories and turned to Reform leader Preston Manning.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

So yes, Mulroney started his career off great by ditching the NEP, among other things.

Then he went and f*cked it all up. Thus the birth of the Reform party (Canadian Alliance) now.

But, these days, the Liberals' proudest accomplishments are the policies put forward back in 1993 by Reform: free trade, a balanced budget and a tougher stance toward Quebec separatists.

It's also interesting that two Albertans run the country's conservative parties: Manning and Tory Joe Clark. They are both attempting to stitch together a coalition, as Mulroney did, to unite the right and defeat the Liberals.

The jury's out on that one, but there's little doubt that Alberta's influence will continue to be disproportionate, thanks to its oil wealth and the aptitude of its citizens to fight against adversity and to bankroll their beliefs.

What sort of leverage will you use to get Kyoto repealed if it's ratified?

The way I see it, if he passes it, it could go two ways:
1) People all over Canada, especially Alberta and probably Ontario as well, will watch gas prices go through the roof, watch the price of their cars go through the roof, will watch their heating bills rise, will watch the GDP fall, and will watch the unemployment rate rise accordingly as many of the companies flee to the US. At which point, everyone will finally decide they're sick of the Liberal government and their perpetual screwups and try the Canadian Alliance on for size (who will campaign and win on the platform of ditching Kyoto).
2) Referendum...

[markusf]

Originally posted by Asher


The way I see it, if he passes it, it could go two ways:
1) People all over Canada, especially Alberta and probably Ontario as well, will watch gas prices go through the roof, watch the price of their cars go through the roof, will watch their heating bills rise, will watch the GDP fall, and will watch the unemployment rate rise accordingly as many of the companies flee to the US. At which point, everyone will finally decide they're sick of the Liberal government and their perpetual screwups and try the Canadian Alliance on for size (who will campaign and win on the platform of ditching Kyoto).
2) Referendum...

Our gas prices are still a good 3 or 4 times lower then europes. Its only a matter of time before they sky rocket here. The simple solution is to ratify it and then just back companies like ballard power etc. To hell with oil

[Asher]

Originally posted by markusf
Our gas prices are still a good 3 or 4 times lower then europes. Its only a matter of time before they sky rocket here. The simple solution is to ratify it and then just back companies like ballard power etc. To hell with oil

That logic doesn't really make sense.

The reason they're so high in Europe was insane petrol taxes, coupled with transportation difficulty and costs.

We don't really have that in Canada. Plus, we're far more dependent on cars than Europe, considering how much space we have.

You also have to look at the ramifications of higher fuel costs. Transportation costs across the board rise, which means anything not produced in the same city you live in will most likely cost more due to the transportation issues, etc.

At the same time, since the US is not ratifying Kyoto many companies will not find it worth the effort to comply with Kyoto and simply move their operations a few hundred Kilometers south to work in the US... Will cause unemployment to rise, in addition to increasing costs of living. What a wonderful combo.

[KrazyHorse]

In other words, you have no idea how to get Kyoto repealed if it were to be ratified. Option one just assumes that you're right and that the fallout from Kyoto would push Ontario into your laps, and option two is sort of silly and probably wouldn't even be brought up in serious political discussion.

Maybe Kyoto would be enough to make the Alliance swallow serious concessions for the PCs in order to actually unite the two parties, since that would be the only way to get an Alberta-friendly gov't into power?

[Asher]

KrazyHorse -- what do you want us to say?

Chretien has so much power and Alberta so little that if Kyoto does pass, and if Alberta is still being shafted & ignored, the only real solution as I see it is to get the hell out -- hold a referrendum and become a US Territory.

And believe me, unlike Quebec, when Alberta has a referrendum mostly everyone in the province is going to be beyond enraged with Ottawa. It'll be the last straw, so to speak.