A thread for Apolyton users who don't believe in God

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tuberski
If there is a God, those who deny him are lost.

Not necessarily. God being perfect, he will understand how difficult it is to believe in him on a world such as this. i dont hink he will hold it against anybody.

[Ignorance]

Originally posted by Tuberski

A belief in God is like car insurance. I don't need it everyday, but when that accident comes it sure is nice to have it there.

Does this mean you believe in muslim and hindu gods too, just in case?

Can you really turn your belief on/off like that?

I can't. I can try to lie to myself but for some reason I always get caught.

The idea of Christian God is just so absurd that I can't truthfully believe it.

And should God exist, he would see through any insurance-scam, being all-mighty and all.

[Tuberski]

See, not believeing in God blinds you, the Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, etc, etc, are the same God. Just worshipped in different ways.

And who said I turn my faith off?

You are the only one who feels that it is lying to yourself. You have that right to not believe, or to worship turnips for all I care.

Just because I have a belief that you don't, doesn't give you the right to ridicule or belittle it.

[Bosh]

it makes them sound like they know enough about the universe to be sure that God doesnt exist

It gets annoying how many people misrepresent atheism in this manner. The VAST majority of us aren't strong atheists (ie people who are 100% sure that god doesn't exist) but rather weak atheists who have views resembling:

I certainly can't see any sensible position to assume aside from that of complete scepticism tempered by a leaning toward that which existing evidence makes most probable. All I say is that I think it is damned unlikely that anything like a central cosmic will, a spirit world , or an eternal survival of personality exist. They are the most preposterous and unjustified of all the guesses which can be made about the universe, and I am not enough of a hair-splitter to pretend that I don't regard them as arrant and negligble moonshine. In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of rational evidence I must be classed, practically and provisionally, as an atheist. The chance's of theism's truth being to my mind so microscopically small, I would be a pedant and a hypocrite to call myself anything else.
HP Lovecraft

If there is a God, those who deny him are lost. If their isn't one you haven't lost anything believing in Him.

If God is a twisted enough **** to reward a cynical Pascal wagerer and punish a honest atheist, then I'd be happy to get sent to hell, would sure be a lot better than spending eternity in the presence of such a moral monstrosity. And in any case everyone knows that anyone who believes in God gets their soul poked repeatedly by the horn of the Invisible Pink Unicorn so I definately don't want to risk that

And as far as all this talk about proof and faith, I think Locke said it best:

I find every sect, as far as reason will help them, make use of it gladly; and where it fails them, they cry out, it is a matter of faith, and above reason.

[CyberGnu]

Tuberski, to be really safe you should find out which religion has the worst hell, and believe in that one, just in case that is the one that is true.

[CyberGnu]

monk, do you have any information on these STRUP people? Scientists, you say? Names, what fields, where did they get their diplomas and where do they work?

Creationism has pretty much ruined christianitys claim for 'scientific expertize'... A PhD from a diploma mill is worth less than the paper it is written on, and a PhD in mechanical engineering doesn't give you any authority in Chemistry...

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Tuberski
You miss the point. Belief in God is called Faith. Faith is the basis of Stigmata. No church I know of says that he was hung by his wrists, it is told that the wounds are in his hands. Therefore based on that belief ,their faith, when they have Stigmata, also based on their faith, they are going to have wounds in their hands. NOT where Jesus actually got nailed to the cross.

No, I got the point precisely when I said "psychosomatic," which would explain exactly what you describe here.

Keep in mind would have been in 1200-1300, a time when most of the world's knowledge has been lost, or at least something as such as the exact details regarding Roman Execution, such as number of lashes, receiving lashes by being tied up and receiving them from both sides, details regarding crucifixion that were unknown until very recently, such as the nails actually penetrating the wrists rather than the palms. Even if he knew these details he would be timid to display them, since it would pertain showing an image of Christ naked, which is something absolutely unheard of in medevial times. All of this also assumes a medical knowledge that is 600 or 700 years ahead of his time, such as the effect driving nails through your wrists has, an exact, perfect knowledge of how blood flows, the effects of a post-mortem spear wound, etc, etc.

The notion this knowledge had been "lost" is bunk. It was known by the educated, which at the time was primarily the monks of the Catholic Church. Such men would also be likely candidates to create such a forgery.

Sure there may not be a God out there, but why take the chance? If there is a God, those who deny him are lost. If their isn't one you haven't lost anything believing in Him.

That is not Faith, that is chicken**** bet-hedging. If God is so concerned with Faith in Him, being omnipotent he will quickly see through your charade and throw you into that Hell you're so afraid of.

I will remain forever honest and true to myself and the world by acknowledging the only truth there is about God--God is unknowable.

[monkspider]

Sure, here ya go Cyber
I understand your suspicions in accepting any form of science which may relate to religion, I agree that some of the claims of fundamentalist creationist scientists are a bit out there. But the vast majority of the members of STURP were actually Atheists/Agnostic anyway.

Investigators for the Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) include:
Joseph S. Accetta, Lockheed Corporation*
Steven Baumgart, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories*
John D. German, U.S. Air Force Weapons Laboratories*
Ernest H. Brooks II, Brooks Institute of Photography*
Mark Evans, Brooks Institute of Photography*
Vernon D. Miller, Brooks Institute of Photography*
Robert Bucklin, Harris County,Texas, Medical Examiner's Office
Donald Devan, Oceanographic Services Inc.*
Rudolph J. Dichtl, University of Colorado*
Robert Dinegar, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
Donald & Joan Janney, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
J. Ronald London, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
Roger A. Morris, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
Ray Rogers, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories*
Larry Schwalbe, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories
Diane Soran, Los Alamos National Scientific Laboratories
Kenneth E. Stevenson, IBM*
Al Adler, Western Connecticut State University
Thomas F. D'Muhala, Nuclear Technology Corporation*
Jim Drusik, Los Angeles County Museum
Joseph Gambescia, St. Agnes Medical Center
Roger & Marty Gilbert, Oriel Corporation*
Thomas Haverty, Rocky Mountain Thermograph*
John Heller, New England Institute
John P. Jackson, U.S. Air Force Academy*
Eric J. Jumper, U.S. Air Force Academy*
Jean Lorre, Jet Propulsion Laboratory*
Donald J. Lynn, Jet Propulsion Laboratory*
Robert W. Mottern, Sandia Laboratories*
Samuel Pellicori, Santa Barbara Research Center*
Barrie M. Schwortz, Barrie Schwortz Studios*

Note: The researchers marked with an * participated directly in the 1978 Examination in Turin. All others are STURP research members who worked with the data or samples after the team returned to the United State

[monkspider]

Hey Boris, I will grant you that it is possible that obsecure knowledge regarding Roman executions may have still existed somewhere amongst medevial academia, even if it is unlikely that the possible artist would be lucky enough to be in the right place for access to this particular info But surely 19th-20th century medical knowledge, or an ability to create microscopic images that wouldn't be able to be seen for centuries, or an ability to create a uniquely three-dimensional image was not.

[Tuberski]

I'm sorry to say it, but now I kind of understand what trolling is all about.

It can be fun.

[Bosh]

Bah! May the Invisible Pink Unicorn forever curse your pizza Tub

[Aeson]

Originally posted by monkspider
or an ability to create a uniquely three-dimensional image was not.

It most certainly is not a 3D image. The diameter of your head (ear to ear) does not equal half it's circumference (ear to ear).

It is a 3D projection onto a 2D surface. Something that would not be created by wrapping that surface around a similar looking 3D structure.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by MikeH
If she was a permenant Virgin Joseph must have been the most frustrated carpenter in the world! I don't think that it says in the bible that she was a virgin after Jesus was born, why should she be?

I think it has to do with the reasoning behind her going directly to heaven and not dying first. Ask the Pope. Its Catholic doctrine and its heresy to disagree with it. One of two official Ex-Statement by Popes.

Personally I think the rational explanation is that Joseph and Mary made the beast with two backs before they were married but then made up the whole immaculate conception thing to cover themselves. Luckily everyone was stupid enough to buy it even though it's a preposterous excuse.

Realistic thinking is not the strong of suit of belief.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by MrFun
I know, but I believe Monk only wants non-believers to participate in this thread for some reason, as indicated by his title.

Monkspider is into some serious denial. The Shroud was VERY accurately dated to the 1300's and only seriously active ignorance can deny it.

The threads were thoroughly cleaned. There was little if any smoke residue on them. There would have to have MORE smoke residue than cotton to move the dating from 33 AD to the 1300's. That clearly was not the case. The blood is not blood. Its pigment. That can clearly be seen in the microscopic photos. The alleged blood on the Shroud is red. It would be brown if it was blood, not red.

Only the most desperate of believers can consider it anything but the fraud it clearly is.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Chowlett
In fact, the New Testament itself refers to Jesus' brothers.

The Catholic church and other churches that believe Mary was a permanent virgin think those are metaphorical brothers. As in "Hey bro did you see the adds for the new blaxploitation flic parody that is coming out."