A thread for Apolyton users who don't believe in God

[monkspider]

fair point Joe, certainly it may be impossible to prove with absolute. 100% certainity whether it was Jesus or space aliens who created the image on the shroud. Really, despite centuries of effort, all proposed mechanisms have failed to come close to accounting for the many unexplainable properties of the body images and blood marks on the shroud, even in the 21st century and the rather impressive ammount of evidence that makes it historically consistent with Jesus' death and ressurection certainly makes you think at very least.
Many things in science from quarks to evolution to the theory of relativity exist without absolute, 100% tanigible proof, however few of us question the validity of these things. I ask all of you to remember to take that into consideration too, when considering what was the most probable cause of the formation of these images.
Also, thanks for taking the time to read my admittedly lengthy post Joe.

[Joe R. Golowka]

100% proof of almost anything is impossible. That's what we have things like Occam's Razor for. From a historical perspective there are many problems with your Jesus hypothosis.

First off, let's look at the historical record. If Jesus died and was ressurected as told by the bible this would have been a major historic event, one that the people in the area noticed. But when we look at what people from that time period wrote, they say nothing about it. There are ancient historians who lived in that time period and wrote extensively on much more minor things yet said absolutely nothing about a guy getting ressurected from the dead. The bible wasn't written until a hundred years after the guy supposidly died and most other references to him don't start until long after this alleged event. The logical conclusion is that Jesus never rose from the dead.

That, combined with the numerous other problems with Christianity (contradictions in the bible, factual errors, the problem of evil, etc.) make the Jesus explanation extremely unlikely. Space aliens is a more likely explanation, though there really isn't enough evidence to conclude that at this time.

[Lemmy]

i haven't read the entire post, but from what i read, it only proves that Jesus could have really existed, and that that person in the shroud, emitted some weird radioactive burst, right?

one word....Aliens

All this god bussiness is just a big alien conspiracy to enslave the human race. When the earth has reached a certain technological level, and most people have the same religion, t hey will come to earth, and claim they are god, and enslave all the religious people, we the Atheists, will be the only one who don't believe they are gods, and will ultimately rescue all the believers, thus becoming gods, well, at least Saints, ourselves.

[-=Vagrant=-]

Originally posted by Lemmy
we the Atheists, will be the only one who don't believe they are gods, and will ultimately rescue all the believers, thus becoming gods, well, at least Saints, ourselves.

Shhhh, don't reveal anymore of our Great Plan!

[monkspider]

Thanks for the reply Joe, First off, although there are numerous reasons for it being perfectly reasonable to believe in God, those are best saved for another thread. I'm trying to not get this thread off on too far of a tangent. And As far as history goes, there is a jewish historian who talks about Jesus named Josepheus (possible sp), I'm not aware of any other contemporary historical records, aside from the new testament, but given the state of war that Isreal faced in the first century AD, it is possible that any other Jewish historical records may have been lost. In any event, what we do know is this: A man named Jesus came to Jerusalem and spoke with unprecedented authority, and the very origin of the Christian faith implies the reality of the resurrection. We all know that Christianity sprang into being in the middle of the first century. Where did it come from? Why did it arise? Well, all scholars agree that Christianity came into being because the original disciples believed that God had raised Jesus from the dead, and they proclaimed this message everywhere that they went. Their account of the ressurection in the New Testament matches the image on the shroud perfectly, with many details (such as the size of the lance wound) not being confirmed until the advent of technology of the last thirty years, or even in some cases, the last two or three years. And like I said, I can't prove with some kind of mathematical certainity that this cloth actually housed Jesus Christ, but at least it certainly does make you think.

[Clear Skies]

Ooh, using Occam's Razor to disprove the existence of God. Very Contact-esque.


ELLIE Hey, I’ve got one for you.

PALMER What have you got?

ELLIE Occam's Razor, you ever heard of it?

PALMER Hackem’s Razor, sounds like some slasher movie.

ELLIE No, Occam's Razor, it’s a basic scientific principle. And it says, all things being equal, the simplest explanation tends to be the right one.

PALMER Make sense to me.

ELLIE Alright. So what’s more likely (Joss puts his jacket around Ellie), thank you...

PALMER You’re welcome.

ELLIE ...An all powerful and mysterious God created the Universe, and then decided not to give any proof of his existence, or that he simply doesn’t exist at all, and that we created him so that we didn’t have to feel so small and alone?

PALMER I don’t know. I couldn’t imagine living in a world where God didn’t exist. I wouldn’t want to.

ELLIE How do you know your not deluding yourself? As for me, I’d need proof.

PALMER Proof. Did you love your father?

ELLIE Huh?

PALMER Your Dad, did you love him?

ELLIE Yes, very much.

PALMER Prove it.

[Aeson]

A big problem with the shroud is that the image on it is not from a 3D figure. If you've ever worked with textures on a 3D surface you'd realize that they are badly distorted images when left 2D. The shroud is a 2D image, yet shows a 3D perspective. If the image was from being wrapped around someones face, the face would be much wider.

-----------------------------

ELLIE I love my Dad

GOD I created the Universe

... I'd tend to believe both statements if they were made to me.

[MikeH]

Proof of Jesus != Proof of God.

Agnostic Mike.

[-=Vagrant=-]

Proof of micro evolution!= proof of evolution.

[MikeH]

True but that's only part of the many proofs of evolution and there isn't a credible alternative theory so at the moment it's the best we have.

[Ethelred]

And As far as history goes, there is a jewish historian who talks about Jesus named Josepheus (possible sp), I'm not aware of any other contemporary historical records, aside from the new testament,

Josephus has just one sentence that mentions Jesus.

James the brother of Jesus.

Thats it. So if you accept that you must also accept that Jesus had a brother and Mary wasn't a permanent virgin. Even that one reference was not contemporary. Josephus was born after the crucifiction.

[Ignorance]

http://skepdic.com/shroud.html
Raises several interesting points.

[MikeH]

If she was a permenant Virgin Joseph must have been the most frustrated carpenter in the world! I don't think that it says in the bible that she was a virgin after Jesus was born, why should she be?

Personally I think the rational explanation is that Joseph and Mary made the beast with two backs before they were married but then made up the whole immaculate conception thing to cover themselves. Luckily everyone was stupid enough to buy it even though it's a preposterous excuse.

[MrFun]

I was going to participate in here, but I believe in God and Jesus Christ, so . . . . . . . .

[MikeH]

Cool! I have no problem with people being religious, it annoys me when they try and convert me though.