A thread for Apolyton users who don't believe in God

[Boris Godunov]

On the blood:

"It is claimed that there is type AB blood on the shroud. However, no blood has been identified on the shroud of Turin. Dried, aged blood is black. The stains on the shroud are red. Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint. In any case, if there were AB blood on the shroud, not only could it be the blood of a person wrapped in the shroud, it could also be the blood of the creator of the shroud or of anyone who handled the shroud. But, the evidence is that there isn't any blood on the shroud."

From Skeptic.com

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Zhu Yuanzhang
Josephus' mention of Jesus is a rather blantant later Christian forgery (or at the very least a gross alternation) since in that passage about Jesus he "wrote" he calls Jesus the Messiah while its quite clear he wasn't a Christian.

No. There is a SECOND reference to Jesus in Josephus which is the one you are thinking of. In the blatantly forged one Josephus refers to Jesus as the Messiah which he clearly would not do since he was not a christian. No Jew would make such a claim.

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by Tuberski
This is why I find atheism dumb.

Sure there may not be a God out there, but why take the chance? If there is a God, those who deny him are lost. If their isn't one you haven't lost anything believing in Him.

A belief in God is like car insurance. I don't need it everyday, but when that accident comes it sure is nice to have it there.

Oh dear another reiteration of Pacal's Frau-- Wager. Containing the Miracle ingrediants Unstated Assumption and Fraudluline.

A belief in the wrong god or even the wrong doctrine about the same god is just as likely to send to some version of Hell as not believeing at all. There is also the possibility that god is actually rational an not the raging psypath that is portrayed in Genesis and Exodus. In which case god might not care to be worshiped. May even punish you for bugging him with prayers.

My odds of not going to sort of hell are at least as good as yours. I don't bug the hypthetical creator with worship which strikes me as far more rational than worshiping is.

Also I don't waste time on it. You do lose something in believing the nonsense. Time and self-respect.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
On the blood:

"It is claimed that there is type AB blood on the shroud. However, no blood has been identified on the shroud of Turin. Dried, aged blood is black. The stains on the shroud are red. Forensic tests on the red stuff have identified it as red ocher and vermilion tempera paint. In any case, if there were AB blood on the shroud, not only could it be the blood of a person wrapped in the shroud, it could also be the blood of the creator of the shroud or of anyone who handled the shroud. But, the evidence is that there isn't any blood on the shroud."

From Skeptic.com

Hi Boris, the old "red ocher paint" story comes from some rogue scientiest named Dr. McCrone who released some scientific findings before the STURP team released theirs. He sold it to a bunch of sensationalist newspapers so the story quickly proliferated. He is also infamous for calling a famous Vinland Map a fraud a few years earlier, which was subsequently proven to be actually legitimate. So, really there is no paint on the shroud, and even without all the tests proving there isn't, the unique properties of the shroud could alone disprove the existence of paint, such as it's lack of directionality showing a lack of dust strokes. But you didn't know the history behind Dr. Mccone's analysis, so it's really not your fault.
Here is a page that discusses Mccrone and STURP's findings.

http://www.shroudstory.com/notofhand.htm

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Ethelred


Monkspider is into some serious denial. The Shroud was VERY accurately dated to the 1300's and only seriously active ignorance can deny it.

The threads were thoroughly cleaned. There was little if any smoke residue on them. There would have to have MORE smoke residue than cotton to move the dating from 33 AD to the 1300's. That clearly was not the case. The blood is not blood. Its pigment. That can clearly be seen in the microscopic photos. The alleged blood on the Shroud is red. It would be brown if it was blood, not red.

Only the most desperate of believers can consider it anything but the fraud it clearly is.

Hi Ethel, those are fairly strong words. There is a number of reasons why I think it is reasonable to believe the Carbon-Dating was skewed. See earlier in this thread for details. And if it was actually just a Medevial forgery, how can you reconcile all of it's properties associated with it stated in the last part of my intial post?
In regards to the blood on the shroud, here is an excerpt from STURP's findings.
"In "...1978 Pierluigi Baima Bollone, the present Director of the International Centre of Sindonology, identified some threads taken from the so- called 'bloodstains' of the Shroud as being first of all traces of blood, which he later confirmed as being human blood, and finally as belonging to the AB group...The STURP scientists confirmed the presence of traces of blood. By means of a complex series of tests...they confirmed the absolute absence of pigments and dyes on the Shroud."
Oh, and also, the blood is a rare type of AB blood that only 3% of the population has, but is 600% more common in the Israel/Palestine and also has a high concentration of pigment bilirubin which is produced when an individual is subjected to great trauma.
Here is a link to some more info regarding information extrapolated from the blood on the shroud.
Details regarding some of the DNA and so forth found in these blood samples can be found in a book called "The DNA of God?"

[Ethelred]

Originally posted by monkspider
Hi Ethel, those are fairly strong words.

They were intended to be. The Shroud is an obvious fraud.

There is a number of reasons why I think it is reasonable to believe the Carbon-Dating was skewed. See earlier in this thread for details.

I did see them. They didn't show anything wrong in what I said. The threads tested were cleaned. The amount of contamination would have had to be greater than the amount of cotton. That is a fact. It is undeniable except through denying reality. Nothing new of course for believers.

And if it was actually just a Medevial forgery, how can you reconcile all of it's properties associated with it stated in the last part of my intial post?

Most of the properties claimed were the products of overactive imagninations that wanted badly to believe.

In regards to the blood on the shroud, here is an excerpt from STURP's findings.
"In "...1978 Pierluigi Baima Bollone, the present Director of the International Centre of Sindonology, identified some threads taken from the so- called 'bloodstains' of the Shroud as being first of all traces of blood, which he later confirmed as being human blood, and finally as belonging to the AB group...

Well he didn't confirm it. Claiming it and proveing it are two different things. Blood that old is not red. YOu can SEE the pigment particles in the micro photos. Well anyone that hasn't blinded themselves from reality can.

The STURP scientists confirmed the presence of traces of blood. By means of a complex series of tests...they confirmed the absolute absence of pigments and dyes on the Shroud."
Details regarding some of the DNA and so forth found in these blood samples can be found in a book called "The DNA of God?"

The DNA of the testers. DNA can be picked up easily from anyone that ever touched the shroud. Its a problem in DNA testing in every forensic lab in the world. I can see the pignments in the photos and some self blinded person claiming they aren't there is not going to make them go away.

The Sturp scientists that said those things were NOT the atheists or the agnostics. It was only the believers that said those very silly things that are so easily seen to be wrong.

Photo of the pigment you claim does not exist.


Photo of real blood on linen


Photo of the alleged blood on the shroud

[Aeson]

The shroud should show the cylindrical texture, not a planar one like view 1 in the diagram.

Any explaination as to why the shroud doesn't display an image consistant with the claim that it was used to wrap the body?

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Ethelred
They were intended to be. The Shroud is an obvious fraud.

We shall see about that.

I did see them. They didn't show anything wrong in what I said. The threads tested were cleaned. The amount of contamination would have had to be greater than the amount of cotton. That is a fact. It is undeniable except through denying reality. Nothing new of course for believers.

Don't be quite so confident in your knowledge of things Ethel, my friend. According to recent findings, there is a certain microscopic organic layer than can develop on artifacts, with textiles being most suspectible to this type of growth. A ton of scientists are now recognizing this, and rounding up old artifacts that were once considered frauds, including a number of mummies.
Here is a link with a little bit of info on this, but also info on some of the flower images encoded into the shroud.

http://www.the-scientist.com/yr1999/sept/lewis_p10_990913.html

Most of the properties claimed were the products of overactive imagninations that wanted badly to believe.

Well, I would disagree, but I will just cite a few of most basic of the shroud's properties. How did a medevial forger create such a precise photographic negative, especially with 19-20th century medical knowledge, and how did this forger create it's 3-D properties and microscopic level of detail?

Well he didn't confirm it. Claiming it and proveing it are two different things. Blood that old is not red. YOu can SEE the pigment particles in the micro photos. Well anyone that hasn't blinded themselves from reality can.

That's a fair point of concern actually Ethel, but here is why: When a person is cruelly tortured, the blood undergoes a terrible haemolysis, when the haemaglobin literally ‘breaks up’. In thirty seconds, the reaction reaches the liver, which doesn’t have time to deal with it, and discharges a volume of bilirubin into the veins. STURP has discovered a very high quantity of this substance in the blood on the Shroud. It is this substance that, when mixed with methemoglobin of a certain type, produces that vivid red colour. The colour of the blood belonging to the ‘Man of the Shroud’ is chemical proof that, before dying, he suffered terrible torture.

The DNA of the testers. DNA can be picked up easily from anyone that ever touched the shroud.

They weren't testing the DNA found on off-areas of the shroud, but the actual blood itself.

It wasn't STURP's Atheists or agnostics who found these things...

Well, especially given that a good majority of STURP was made up of Atheists/Agnostics who expected to prove it a fraud in five seconds, you would think that if one or two rogue members went off making wild claims they would try to rectify the situation. I guarantee you that you won't find members of STURP disputing their findings amongst themselves.

[monkspider]

Aeson, I'm not sure what the geometrics of your image are trying to convey, honestly, sorry , can you clarify just a bit? Are you referring to the Shroud's three-dimensionality?

[Aeson]

The shroud's 3D image is not consistant with a rounded surface. The image is what is represented by view 1 in the diagram. Basically every point on view 1 represents the point on the face perpendicular to it (EDIT: the "normal" from that point). Very much like a photograph.

View 1 is not what would be produced by wrapping the body. The cylindrical "texture" is.

The "normals" have to do with vector math, and aren't too important for understanding what the cylindrical texture would look like. The point P and the line from the center of the head are the important parts. Imagine that line like the hand of a clock. At every position, the point on the cylindrical texture would represent the point at which the line exits the head.

From a mathmatics standpoint, the width of view 1 is what is represented by the shroud of turin. This would be 2r (2 times the radius). The width of the same view on the cylindrical texture would be half of 2Pi(r) which is Pi(r). So the ratio between the two representation's widths would be 2:Pi. 2 does not equal Pi (~3.14) so the representation on the shroud was not formed by wrapping.

Of course this is a little off, as the circumference of a human head is not a perfect circle. The human head tends to be more of an elipse, with the narrow ends at front and back. This makes the ratio of width even more lopsided between the frontal and cylindrical views.

[Aeson]

This image was taken from http://www.shroudstory.com/vp8.htm which was another page at the site you linked to earlier.

This is what is commonly referred to as a bumpmap. Each point is viewed as a height (usually using the color at that point to derive the height), and shaded accordingly. It gives a 2D image the impression of being 3D. Most any image can be "bumped". It is a very common practice in game programming as it is a fast and cheap (from a processing standpoint) method of achieving a 3D effect.

[monkspider]

Fair enough, Well the shroud is three-dimensional in that the most intense areas of the shroud (i.e those areas that contain the greatest number of colored fibrils) correspond with those body parts that would have been in closest contact with a cloth lying over a body: the nose, forehead, chin, hands, etc. Areas farther away left a lighter impression. These thoughts were confirmed by using the latest in space-age technology in the late 70s. So, A normal black and white photograph (or monochrome photograph of any single color) is an image of varying amounts of reflected light. Light colored surfaces approach white and dark surfaces tend towards black. The Shroud, however, is a "graph" of proximity of the fabric to the body. At the same time, it acts like a photographic negative. Closeness appears darker (a scorched-linen color) and distance is lighter.
Because Physicists aare driven by the need to support theories with mathematics, Jackson and his colleagues then set out to calculate the probable distances between a draped cloth and a body lying beneath it. They found volunteers of similar height and weight as the man in the shroud and draped over them a piece of linen with a herringbone weave and thickness similar to the shroud's. Using a cloth with the body image's major features traced on it, they tried to duplicate the shroud's original drape as closely as possible. Based on photographs of the draped volunteers, they constructed a drawing of a covered, reclining man and could then easily measure the disance between the draping cloth and the underlying body.
With this information in hand, the team obtained microdensitometer of the shroud. Measurements of the Shroud's intesity values were then directly compared to measurements made earlier of the distances between the draped cloth and underlying body. When calculated, the results showed "a definite correlation between image intensity and cloth-to-body body distance. Studies by other scientists working at the Jet Propulsion University, as well as researchers at the University of Turin, have independently confirmed this three-dimensional distance information. Interestingly, theh image encoded even in places where the cloth could not possibly have been touching the body. Whatever the image-forming mechanism was, it also acted through empty space.

[Aeson]

Here is just a set of images that show a 2D texture mapped onto a sphere, and then bumpmapped to appear as a 3D texture.

[Aeson]

Originally posted by monkspider
Fair enough, Well the shroud is three-dimensional in that the most intense areas of the shroud (i.e those areas that contain the greatest number of colored fibrils) correspond with those body parts that would have been in closest contact with a cloth lying over a body:

This is very consistant with what I said about bump mapping. You can write an algorithm to 'decode' most any image in this manner.

Because Physicists aare driven by the need to support theories with mathematics, Jackson and his colleagues then set out to calculate the probable distances between a draped cloth and a body lying beneath it. They found volunteers of similar height and weight as the man in the shroud and draped over them a piece of linen with a herringbone weave and thickness similar to the shroud's. Using a cloth with the body image's major features traced on it, they tried to duplicate the shroud's original drape as closely as possible.

I guess they assumed polarized radiation? More on this further down.

Interestingly, theh image encoded even in places where the cloth could not possibly have been touching the body. Whatever the image-forming mechanism was, it also acted through empty space.

If you look at the "encoding" further away from the image you get an impression of how thick the body was. In this case, from chin to the table looks like about 3 inches max. I doubt Jesus was a bumpmapped cartoon character.

On radiation projection:

Ok. Yes the shroud could have been created by projecting radiation onto a draped (read: parallel) surface. There are some problems with this though.

First, if the shroud was parallel, the body could not have been wrapped in the shroud, otherwise the image would be distorted like I showed earlier. The gap between the image of the front and back of the head would give us some impression of the depth. I can't find any good pictures to judge by though

The shroud had to be at least folded up over the head and then back down underneath the body. To keep the shroud parallel or close too it, only the highest portions of the body (while lying) would have come in contact with the front of the shroud. If the shroud wasn't kept parallel, it would drape over the body (especially the head) and create the 3D distortions already mentioned.

The main problem is that if it was created by radiation, where is the non-normal (the vector perpendicular) representation of this radiation. If the body was emitting radiation, it would most likely not be polarized. Why would the back and front emit radiation but not the sides?

If there was a parallel surface, the distortion from the emitted radiation should have spread across the entire width of the shroud. You would see representation (even though faint) of the sides of the body clear out to the edges. The distortion in this case would actually end up worse than by wrapping.

[Jack the Bodiless]

No, the image is NOT "a graph of proximity of the fabric to the body", unlesss you assume the shroud was nailed to a flat board in front of the body. If the shroud was draped over the body, it would not have been flat, and the image should have been distorted.

Furthermore, articles on the Web are not automatically true, and the "shroudstory.com" article contains some obvious baloney. For instance, it claims that there was "no evidence of capillary action between fibers", whereas the appearance of the "bloodstains" (a pale area surrounded by a darker ring), is caused (in genuine bloodstains) by capillary action.

It is similarly baloney to suggest that a lack of brush-strokes on such a faint image rules out a human artist: when a woman applies makeup, can you see brush-strokes?

It is also baloney to suggest that "only radiation" could produce surface scorching of fibers. Placing linen briefly on a hot surface would do that.

And I've already explained why it's impossible for organic contamination to skew the dates by the amount required, making it appear to be less than half its "true age".

The forger could easily have used a combination of methods: a genuine corpse was probably involved, plus painting by hand. Personally, I suspect a Muslim. They controlled the "Holy Land" at the time, had access to the materials (this would also explain pollen grains from the Middle East), and had a motive. They also had access to historical data unavailable in Europe. Their religion forbids the creation of human images for religious purposes, but not for fooling gullible infidels.