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Originally posted by monkspider
Don't be quite so confident in your knowledge of things Ethel, my friend. According to recent findings, there is a certain microscopic organic layer than can develop on artifacts, with textiles being most suspectible to this type of growth. A ton of scientists are now recognizing this, and rounding up old artifacts that were once considered frauds, including a number of mummies.
Don't be quite so confident in your knowledge of things Ethel, my friend. According to recent findings, there is a certain microscopic organic layer than can develop on artifacts, with textiles being most suspectible to this type of growth. A ton of scientists are now recognizing this, and rounding up old artifacts that were once considered frauds, including a number of mummies.
Here is a link with a little bit of info on this, but also info on some of the flower images encoded into the shroud.
http://www.the-scientist.com/yr1999/...10_990913.html
The flower and pollen only imply that the shroud was from the Middle East not 33 AD and of course Dr Frei has been shown to be an unreliable source.
From that same link
But the radiocarbon dating paper is impressive. A 10 x 70-mm piece from the shroud was cut from a region free of char, snipped in three and given to dating labs at the University of Arizona in Tucson, Oxford University, and the Institute fur Mittelenergiephysik in Zurich. Collaborators hailed from Columbia University and the British Museum. Controls were three samples of linen with known dates. "The region was chosen very carefully by textile experts to contain no material but shroud. The shroud is a woven piece, and one region of it is as representative of the whole as any other," explains Douglas Donahue, a professor of physics at the University of Arizona who was present at the April 21, 1988 sampling. Each lab subdivided the samples to test them repeatedly, and treated different pieces with different mechanical and chemical cleaning methods. Then each sample was examined microscopically to detect and remove contaminants.
The results date the shroud to 1260-1390 A.D., with 95 percent confidence. This corresponds to the period when the shroud's location was unknown, and is consistent with a 14th-century bishop's report that a forger had confessed.
Donahue defends the radiocarbon dating. Neither water nor burn marks would alter the date, he says, nor has Mattingly and Leoncio Garza-Valdes' "bioplastic theory" been published in a peer-reviewed journal. "The bacterial material they propose is invisible to normal human beings, including myself, is impervious to reasonable chemical treatments, and is made of only modern carbon. In order to change the radiocarbon age of the shroud from the 700 years, which we measured to 2,000 years, the shroud would need to consist of 60 percent of this bacterial substance."
As for the pollen
By Thursday of the week of the botanical congress, the story of possible new scientific evidence for the authenticity of the shroud of Turin had made its way around the globe. Then on Friday, August 6, the Amherst, N.Y.-based Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP), an international network of scientists who examine pseudoscience, added its two cents. Their report, compiled by CSICOP senior research fellow Joe Nickell, claims that Frei's pollen-rich tapes could not be replicated, and that all but one tape reexamined after Frei's death had little pollen--and that this was an old story. Nickell mentions other images seen "Rorschach-like" in the shroud, attributes the "blood" stains to tempera paint, and calls linking the shroud to the Sudarium of Oviedo by the pattern of marks and pollen "wishful thinking."
Of course if pollen from the Israel can be found why can't the spices described in John be found. It was a LOT of spice. Surely some should have adhered along with the pollen.
That is also from the link you posted. You sure are selective in your reading.
Well, I would disagree, but I will just cite a few of most basic of the shroud's properties. How did a medevial forger create such a precise photographic negative, especially with 19-20th century medical knowledge, and how did this forger create it's 3-D properties and microscopic level of detail?
I notice how you are ignoring ALL the evidence that you are wrong in that. Its not precise and its not really a negative. Its not even close the right kind of cylindrical projection. The alleged properties aren't real.
The coin image is invisible to the human eye in any modern photos. The source image the claim is based on was made in 1930's and the original photo was not used but a multigeneration copy of the original. I sure can't see anything but an eyelid in the images on the web.
That's a fair point of concern actually Ethel, but here is why: When a person is cruelly tortured, the blood undergoes a terrible haemolysis, when the haemaglobin literally ‘breaks up’. In thirty seconds, the reaction reaches the liver, which doesn’t have time to deal with it, and discharges a volume of bilirubin into the veins.
Would you care to give a link to something that is peer reviewed to support that. I bet you can't. It looks just like the nonsense that the ICR comes up with for the flood.
By the way if that WAS true then you have to give up on the claim for AB blood type. Pick one. Or neither not both.
STURP has discovered a very high quantity of this substance in the blood on the Shroud. It is this substance that, when mixed with methemoglobin of a certain type, produces that vivid red colour. The colour of the blood belonging to the ‘Man of the Shroud’ is chemical proof that, before dying, he suffered terrible torture.
Since no one has any evidence of blood on the shroud that stands up to peer review I don' think I can cosider that to be a viable claim. The color of the fake blood is ample evidence it was faked unless of course you can show some real evidence to support this claim not just the wild speculation of the believers from STURP. The stuff you are reporting is not from the Atheists. Its from those that believed even before they tested. They are bad scientists as the nonsense they say about the C14 testing shows.
They weren't testing the DNA found on off-areas of the shroud, but the actual blood itself.
The nonexistent blood you mean? The blood no one can show exists? And how did they obtain it. Human red blood cells by the way do NOT contain DNA. Skin does. Cloth touched by anyone handling can. Do you have reason to think the shroud was never touche by anyone? Even the model that was placed in it when the forgery was made?
Quote from the person that did the DNA testing.
From:
Of the tests, Tryon says, "All I can tell you is that DNA contamination is present and that the DNA belonged either to a human or another higher primate. I have no idea who or where the DNA signal came from, nor how long it's been there." It is, he says, not necessarily the remains of blood. "Everyone who has ever touched the shroud or cried over the shroud has left a potential DNA signal there." Tryon quit the project soon after his tests. "I saw it as a multidisciplinary project involving archaeology, physiology and other fields. But I came to believe there was another agenda present too. It was my first encounter with zealotry in science."
Well, especially given that a good majority of STURP was made up of Atheists/Agnostics who expected to prove it a fraud in five seconds, you would think that if one or two rogue members went off making wild claims they would try to rectify the situation. I guarantee you that you won't find members of STURP disputing their findings amongst themselves.
You keep repeating that claim about atheists/agnostics. Can you support it? I can't find a think about their religious beliefs. It seems to be a deep dark secret as far as I can tell. You are the only one I have seen so far make that claim.
I did just find this:
From http://www.scifidimensions.com/Aug00..._nickell_4.htm
Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) - a group of some 30 scientists from various disciplines got permission to go to Turin and do more tests. Unfortunately, almost all of these were religious believers, most of them were Roman Catholics; in fact, the leaders of the group served on the Executive Council for the Holy Shroud Guild.
Whether he is right or not I can't determine yet but I find it more likely than your claim.
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